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dialog of 18 Jan 2010
From: Richard Moore <rkm-at-quaylargo.com>
Date: 23 Jan 2010
Subject: dialog of 18 Jan 2010
To: cyberjournal-at-yahoogroups.com,
cyberjournal-at-lists.riseup.net,
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Bcc: contributors and interested parities
_______
> From: ernie yacub
> Date: 18 January 2010 07:35:30 GMT
> To: Richard Moore <rkm-at-quaylargo.com>
> Subject: Fwd: [coalofcoal-l] Fw: 13 reasons to suspect HAARP caused > Haiti quake
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2687
>
> would be very interested in any cogent material, just like 9/11 my > first thought, deliberate?
> but that is a problem, knowing how the system works predisposes us > to such conclusions and consequently supportive theories
---
Related articles:
Environmental Modification Techniques (ENMOD) and Climate Change
The manipulation of climate for military use
By Michel Chossudovsky
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2545
VIDEO: HAARP Weather Control (video)
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2708
Hugo Chavez accuses U.S. of using weapon to cause Haiti quake (including video)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2709
Oil in Haiti - Economic Reasons for the UN/US Occupation
By Marguerite Laurent
Global Research, January 22, 2010
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2710
Haiti Has Larger Oil Reserves Than Venezuela Say Scientists
(An Olympic Pool Compared to a Glass of Water)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2711
Haitians Dying By The Thousands As US Escalates Military Intervention
By Bill Van Auken
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/messages
---
Hi Ernie,
The further you stand back from a canvas, the better you can see the overall picture. Steam emerging from the ground, unusual aftershocks, etc. are the close-up view, the brushstrokes. Those are like the videos of the Twin Towers, where the demolition explosions are clearly visible.
As we step back, we see an obviously pre-planned operation unfolding, with a carefully orchestrated agenda: blocking aid to maximize fatalities, cover-stories about non-existent security problems, take- over of the country by massive US troop invasion, preparations for permanent occupation – and then there's the oil, which we won't hear anything about in the mainstream media. This is like the pre-planned operation that began unfolding on 9/11, with the instantaneous creation of the mythical Al Qaeda, the satanization of the elusive Bin Laden, the phony War on Terror, and the fascist Patriot Act.
When you have a pre-planned operation ready to roll, it doesn't make a lot of sense to make the launch dependent on some unpredictable event that might never happen, such as an earthquake or a surprise terrorist attack. HAARP is available, and HAARP has the capability to target an earthquake in a specific location. With this far-back perspective on the canvas, the evidence from the close-up view is not surprising, and provides confirmation. It's like if a red jacket is found at a murder scene: it becomes real evidence if the primary suspect has recently 'misplaced' just such a jacket.
rkm
_______
> From: "M.A. Omas Schaefer"
> Date: 18 January 2010 18:05:52 GMT
> To: "Richard Moore" <Richard.Kelly.Moore-at-gmail.com>
> Subject: Economic Growth
>
> Perhaps I've missed something, but I'm wondering if you have > identified the issuance of debt-based fiat currency as being the > primary causal factor of perpetual economic growth. It seems to me > that fractional reserve banking, by its very nature, created the > need for constant economic growth.
> If the banking system is indeed the root of the problem, why is > discussion of industrialism, capitalism and/or individualism even > relevant? If the discussion isn't focused on the cause, then aren't > we playing into the hands of the elites when we engage in ostensibly > intellectual discussion of the "ism's?"
---
Hi Omas,
We have talked here about fractional-reserve banking more than once, and on newslog there have been dozens of articles on that, and on related financial matters. Thanks for the reminder.
I always find it interesting when someone seeks to identify 'the one root problem'. For many it's corporate power, for others it's over- population, for some it's Zionism, or human nature, or capitalism, or even money itself, the 'root of all evil'. Fractional-reserve banking isn't a bad candidate, certainly closer to the root than corporate power. But then we can ask, "Who passes the laws that allow fractional reserve banking?", and "Who controls the media during political campaigns?", etc. So some conclude that the 'real problem' is that we haven't had election and media reform. Each problem is caused by some other problem. If you keep your nose close to the canvas, tracing from each problem to its cause, you just go in circles.
As I said to Ernie, above, the further back from the canvas you stand, the clearer picture you get. If we step back a bit from fractional- reserve banking, we see that the bigger picture is the Central Bank model. Fractional-reserve banking is simply one tool of their enrichment, along with the manipulation of interest rates, credit availability, and the money supply.
If we step back a bit further, we see that the still-bigger bigger picture is a small clique of banking families, eg the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, and certain European royal families – who own the central banks, and have been orchestrating the affairs of the West for centuries – with war-among-nations being their most important tool of aggrandizement, both financially and politically.
But even a few centuries is a close-up view. Let's step back and consider the past 5,000 years, the span of Western civilization. Always there have been cliques of ruling elites, competing with one another, and using whatever tools are available to control and exploit the rest of us. The tools have evolved, and the elite cliques have become more hidden and more consolidated, but our relationship to them, basically that of slave to owner, has never changed, except for brief periods in isolated locations.
From this perspective, we see that the bigger picture is the fact that we have for millennia been ruled by elites. The banksters are simply the most recent incarnation. It is of limited value to over- analyze the current toolbox of the current incarnation, eg fractional reserve banking. You say, "If the discussion isn't focused on the cause, then aren't we playing into the hands of the elites?" Indeed we are. Any useful discussion about improving our situation must begin from this strategic perspective: the core problem facing us is rule by elites.
If we bring in a bit of systems thinking, and organizational science, we can reframe it this way: the core problem facing us is the paradigm of hierarchical organization. Hierarchies tend always toward centralized power internally, self-perpetuation and self- aggrandizement externally, and information hiding at all levels. Hierarchical governments are an inevitable outcome of the existence of hierarchical groups. Elite rule is an inevitable outcome of hierarchical governance. And an elite-ruled world government is the inevitable outcome of the evolution of hierarchy, once the appropriate technology becomes available.
In order to see how we might address this problem, we need to step back still further from the canvas. Civilization and hierarchy turn out to be very recent and unfortunate blots on the human canvas, a canvas that goes back about 200,000 years, and spans two ice ages. For more than 95% of our history hierarchy was a stranger to us. We lived in relatively small, autonomous groups, and decisions were made collectively, by talking things over until we agreed.
This long history is what is meant by the Garden of Eden. Our banishment from the Garden was our embracing of hierarchy – tasting the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of power over others. This 'tree' had been carefully avoided ever since we came down from the trees, and abandoned our primate ancestor's alpha-male ways. The abandonment of hierarchy was the most important evolutionary step in the development of humanity. And ever since we re-embraced hierarchy, five or six thousand years ago, our species has been suffering from a toxic infection.
The only way we can cleanse ourselves of elite rule is to abandon hierarchy once again. We can only abandon hierarchy by re-establishing local autonomy, and making our local decisions on a collective basis, by talking things over until we agree. This is not something that can be done on the Internet, nor does talking about it here make it happen in the real world. But it is something we have the power to do, by working toward that goal in our own communities. We do not need to wait for government to give us permission or to help us, and such help and permission would never be forthcoming anyway.
You point out that we spend time with "ostensibly intellectual discussion of the ism's". I look at it this way. If you want to help someone understand something, you've got to start with what they are currently concerned about. From wherever that is on the canvas, you can then encourage them to step back a bit and get a bigger picture. That's why I think these dialog postings are valuable, regardless of the topics people bring up. No matter where we start, if we step back far enough, we always end up seeing the same big canvas.
rkm
__________
> From: Thomas Schley
> Date: 18 January 2010 18:36:05 GMT
> To: <rkm-at-quaylargo.com>
> Subject: Doing away with hierarachical structures and basic > subsistence payments
>
> Hi Richard,
> Forgive me if this is the wrong address to contact you with off > topic messages...I lost alternative email address you gave out a > week or two ago.
> Yesterday I met a couple who have been bicycling (mostly around > Europe, including Russia, Turkey, and Israel) for 13 years. After > listening to some of their adventures and songs they've written, > they brought up some progressive things that are occurring in places > like Scandinavia, Germany and the Czech Republic. Most interesting > to me was the work of Goetz Werner who is founder and former CEO of / > Drogerie Markt (DM), Germany's second largest drug store chain, now > found throughout eastern and southern Europe. It sells high quality > (including organic) products at reasonable prices. Werner is one of > Europe's major proponents of a basic income payment to all people, > no matter whether they work...to give them the freedom to decide the > course of their lives without the necessity of having to work in a > meaningless job...much like Richard C. Cook's and Social Credit's > ideas.
> Werner has also instituted a policy of lessening or doing way with > hierarchical structures within DM, leader the employee to work > toward becoming autonomous within their portion of the company, and > seeing the company as a greater whole which also includes the > customer. Here's a link to some sort of training program they did > in English (not the best translation, but you can get the gist of > it) that you might want to scan in order to get some idea of what > they're trying to do. It's interesting they say they sometimes get > employees who want a boss to tell them what to do...some of these > folks decide to leave rather than grow. It's important to realize > we are all in a different place and not all are ready for the same > social, political and economic environment.
> http://www.slideshare.net/beyondbudgetingnet/dialogbased-leadership-dm-drogeriemarkt-presentation
> Richard, please let me know if you find out more about what DM and > Werner are doing.
> Thanks, Tom
---
Hi Tom,
Far from being off topic, your message, and particularly your subject line, dovetails perfectly with what we've been talking about. Devolution of autonomy downward, wherever that can be done, contributes to the goal of abandoning hierarchy altogether. Werner seems to be doing a rather good job of that at DM. The most evolved example of localized autonomy in the workplace are the Mondragon cooperatives, in the Basque country in northern Spain.
It is very good to support such things, but it is not good to lose sight of the big canvas. By putting his energy into a basic income payment, Werner is lending his support to hierarchy. Being on the dole is being at the direct mercy of governments, and it motivates the recipient to support the continuance of elite rule – Don't bite the had that feeds you.
Similarly it is good to support the Transition Towns movement and relocalization movements generally. But if we leave out the political dimension, and focus only on local self-sustainability, we have lost sight of the big canvas. In particular, these movements need to become more inclusive, and they need to focus on the development of non- hierarchical forms and dialog processes. Local sustainability is in one sense a primary goal, but in a bigger sense it is merely a vehicle that is well-suited to help develop autonomous local governance.
rkm
________
> From: j fadiman
> Date: 18 January 2010 22:34:49 GMT
> To: "Richard Moore" <rkm-at-quaylargo.com>
> Subject: Re: Tom Burghardt: Obama Calls for the Integration of State > and Federal Military Forces
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyberjournal/message/389
>
> right on schedule. Mr. underpants has served the system well. Time > for him to have an unforeseen accident soon.
---
Hi Jim,
Once again, the suspicious fellow with the video camera, and getting on the plane without a passport, are the brushstrokes. We step back a bit, and we see a pre-planned operation, including the expansion of the 'War on Terror' (really The War on Humanity) to Yemen, and yet another giant step toward a Nazi-style police state at home. And let's not forget the DNA-toxic full-body scanners, which will probably motivate lots of pedophiles and perverts to apply for jobs with TSA.
As for an unforeseen accident, I've been wondering about the fate of Mr. Obama. One of the events Adrian Salbuchi suggested we look out for is the assassination of a top government or religious leader. One can easily imagine a summit of world leaders, with Obama giving the opening speech, and suddenly there's a rifle shot, by some Manchurian- candidate, CIA-programmed, Iranian fall-guy. What quicker way to get an agreement on world government? In the case of Obama, however, being 'one of them', the assassination might be faked, like in a hollywood movie, with fake blood and all. The 'corpse' would be spirited away and Obama would rise from the dead three days later, but his appearance would be altered and he'd be off somewhere in a tropical paradise, in a kind of VIP witness protection program. Or perhaps they wouldn't bother with the faking. To them, he's as expendable as any other peon, and betrayal is one of their hallmark characteristics.
rkm
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<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div class="AppleMailSignature" id="54BF2083-065D-4B4A-9C6A-3FBE7AE5065D"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Times New Roman'"><b>Bcc</b>: contributors and interested parities</font></div></span></span></div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">_______</span></font><div><br></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">From: ernie yacub</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Date: 18 January 2010 07:35:30 GMT</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">To: Richard Moore <<a href="mailto:rkm-at-quaylargo.com">rkm-at-quaylargo.com</a>></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Subject: Fwd: [coalofcoal-l] Fw: 13 reasons to suspect HAARP caused Haiti quake</font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"> </font></span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2687">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2687</a></font></span></font></div></span></blockquote><div><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">would be very interested in any cogent material, just like 9/11 my first thought, deliberate? </font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"> </font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">but that is a problem, knowing how the system works predisposes us to such conclusions and consequently supportive theories</font></div></span></blockquote><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">---</font></div><div><br></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Related articles</span></font><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">:</span></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><b><br></b></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; "><b>Environmental Modification Techniques (ENMOD) and Climate Change</b></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><b>The manipulation of climate for military use</b></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">By Michel Chossudovsky</span></font></div></div><div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2545">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2545</a></span></font></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><b><br></b></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><b>VIDEO: HAARP Weather Control</b> (video)</span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Canadian Broadcasting Corporation </span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2708">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2708</a></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><b><br></b></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><b>Hugo Chavez accuses U.S. of using weapon to cause Haiti quake</b> (including video)</span></div><div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2709">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2709</a></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div></div></span></font></div></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><b>Oil in Haiti - Economic Reasons for the UN/US Occupation</b></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">By Marguerite Laurent</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Global Research, January 22, 2010</span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2710">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2710</a></span></font></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><b>Haiti Has Larger Oil Reserves Than Venezuela Say Scientists </b></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><b>(An Olympic Pool Compared to a Glass of Water)</b></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2711">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/message/2711</a></span></font></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><b>Haitians Dying By The Thousands As US Escalates Military Intervention</b></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">By Bill Van Auken</span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"> </span></font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/messages">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newslog/messages</a></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div></div></div></span></div></font></div><div>---</div><div><br></div><div>Hi Ernie,</div><div><br></div><div>The further you stand back from a canvas, the better you can see the overall picture. Steam emerging from the ground, unusual aftershocks, etc. are the close-up view, the brushstrokes. Those are like the videos of the Twin Towers, where the demolition explosions are clearly visible. </div><div><br></div><div>As we step back, we see an obviously pre-planned operation unfolding, with a carefully orchestrated agenda: blocking aid to maximize fatalities, cover-stories about non-existent security problems, take-over of the country by massive US troop invasion, preparations for permanent occupation – and then there's the oil, which we won't hear anything about in the mainstream media. This is like the pre-planned operation that began unfolding on 9/11, with the instantaneous creation of the mythical Al Qaeda, the satanization of the elusive Bin Laden, the phony War on Terror, and the fascist Patriot Act.</div><div><br></div><div>When you have a pre-planned operation ready to roll, it doesn't make a lot of sense to make the launch dependent on some unpredictable event that might never happen, such as an earthquake or a surprise terrorist attack. HAARP is available, and HAARP has the capability to target an earthquake in a specific location. With this far-back perspective on the canvas, the evidence from the close-up view is not surprising, and provides confirmation. It's like if a red jacket is found at a murder scene: it becomes real evidence if the primary suspect has recently 'misplaced' just such a jacket.</div><div><br></div><div>rkm</div><div>_______</div><div><br></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">From: "M.A. Omas Schaefer"</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Date: 18 January 2010 18:05:52 GMT</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">To: "Richard Moore" <<a href="mailto:Richard.Kelly.Moore-at-gmail.com">Richard.Kelly.Moore-at-gmail.com</a>></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Subject: Economic Growth</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Perhaps I've missed something, but I'm wondering if you have identified the issuance of debt-based fiat currency as being the primary causal factor of perpetual economic growth. It seems to me that fractional reserve banking, by its very nature, created the need for constant economic growth.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"> </font><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"> </font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">If the banking system is indeed the root of the problem, why is discussion of industrialism, capitalism and/or individualism even relevant? If the discussion isn't focused on the cause, then aren't we playing into the hands of the elites when we engage in ostensibly intellectual discussion of the "ism's?"</font></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div></font></div><div>---</div><div><br></div><div>Hi Omas,</div><div><br></div><div>We have talked here about fractional-reserve banking more than once, and on newslog there have been dozens of articles on that, and on related financial matters. Thanks for the reminder.</div><div><br></div><div>I always find it interesting when someone seeks to identify 'the one root problem'. For many it's corporate power, for others it's over-population, for some it's Zionism, or human nature, or capitalism, or even money itself, the 'root of all evil'. Fractional-reserve banking isn't a bad candidate, certainly closer to the root than corporate power. But then we can ask, "Who passes the laws that allow fractional reserve banking?", and "Who controls the media during political campaigns?", etc. So some conclude that the 'real problem' is that we haven't had election and media reform. Each problem is caused by some other problem. If you keep your nose close to the canvas, tracing from each problem to its cause, you just go in circles.</div><div><br></div><div>As I said to Ernie, above, the further back from the canvas you stand, the clearer picture you get. If we step back a bit from fractional-reserve banking, we see that the bigger picture is the Central Bank model. Fractional-reserve banking is simply one tool of their enrichment, along with the manipulation of interest rates, credit availability, and the money supply. </div><div><br></div><div>If we step back a bit further, we see that the still-bigger bigger picture is a small clique of banking families, eg the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, and certain European royal families – who own the central banks, and have been orchestrating the affairs of the West for centuries – with war-among-nations being their most important tool of aggrandizement, both financially and politically. </div><div><br></div><div>But even a few centuries is a close-up view. Let's step back and consider the past 5,000 years, the span of Western civilization. Always there have been cliques of ruling elites, competing with one another, and using whatever tools are available to control and exploit the rest of us. The tools have evolved, and the elite cliques have become more hidden and more consolidated, but our relationship to them, basically that of slave to owner, has never changed, except for brief periods in isolated locations. </div><div><br></div><div>From this perspective, we see that the bigger picture is the fact that we have for millennia been ruled by elites. The banksters are simply the most recent incarnation. It is of limited value to over-analyze the current toolbox of the current incarnation, eg fractional reserve banking. You say, "If the discussion isn't focused on the cause, then aren't we playing into the hands of the elites?" Indeed we are. Any useful discussion about improving our situation must begin from this strategic perspective: <i>the core problem facing us is rule by elites</i>. </div><div><br></div><div>If we bring in a bit of systems thinking, and organizational science, we can reframe it this way: <i>the core problem facing us is the paradigm of hierarchical organization</i>. Hierarchies tend always toward centralized power internally, self-perpetuation and self-aggrandizement externally, and information hiding at all levels. Hierarchical governments are an inevitable outcome of the existence of hierarchical groups. Elite rule is an inevitable outcome of hierarchical governance. And an elite-ruled world government is the inevitable outcome of the evolution of hierarchy, once the appropriate technology becomes available.</div><div><br></div><div>In order to see how we might address this problem, we need to step back still further from the canvas. Civilization and hierarchy turn out to be very recent and unfortunate blots on the human canvas, a canvas that goes back about 200,000 years, and spans two ice ages. For more than 95% of our history hierarchy was a stranger to us. We lived in relatively small, autonomous groups, and decisions were made collectively, by talking things over until we agreed. </div><div><br></div><div>This long history is what is meant by the Garden of Eden. Our banishment from the Garden was our embracing of hierarchy – tasting the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of power over others. This 'tree' had been carefully avoided ever since we came down from the trees, and abandoned our primate ancestor's alpha-male ways. The abandonment of hierarchy was the most important evolutionary step in the development of humanity. And ever since we re-embraced hierarchy, five or six thousand years ago, our species has been suffering from a toxic infection.</div><div><br></div><div>The only way we can cleanse ourselves of elite rule is to abandon hierarchy once again. We can only abandon hierarchy by re-establishing local autonomy, and making our local decisions on a collective basis, by talking things over until we agree. This is not something that can be done on the Internet, nor does talking about it here make it happen in the real world. But it is something we have the power to do, by working toward that goal in our own communities. We do not need to wait for government to give us permission or to help us, and such help and permission would never be forthcoming anyway. </div><div><br></div><div>You point out that we spend time with "ostensibly intellectual discussion of the ism's". I look at it this way. If you want to help someone understand something, you've got to start with what they are currently concerned about. From wherever that is on the canvas, you can then encourage them to step back a bit and get a bigger picture. That's why I think these dialog postings are valuable, regardless of the topics people bring up. No matter where we start, if we step back far enough, we always end up seeing the same big canvas. </div><div><br></div><div>rkm</div><div>__________</div><div><br></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">From: Thomas Schley</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Date: 18 January 2010 18:36:05 GMT</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">To: <<a href="mailto:rkm-at-quaylargo.com">rkm-at-quaylargo.com</a>></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Subject: Doing away with hierarachical structures and basic subsistence payments</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Hi Richard,</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Forgive me if this is the wrong address to contact you with off topic messages...I lost alternative email address you gave out a week or two ago.</font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"> </font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Yesterday I met a couple who have been bicycling (mostly around Europe, including Russia, Turkey, and Israel) for 13 years. After listening to some of their adventures and songs they've written, they brought up some progressive things that are occurring in places like Scandinavia, Germany and the Czech Republic. Most interesting to me was the work of Goetz Werner who is founder and former CEO of /Drogerie Markt (DM), Germany's second largest drug store chain, now found throughout eastern and southern Europe. It sells high quality (including organic) products at reasonable prices. Werner is one of Europe's major proponents of a basic income payment to all people, no matter whether they work...to give them the freedom to decide the course of their lives without the necessity of having to work in a meaningless job...much like Richard C. Cook's and Social Credit's ideas.</font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"> </font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Werner has also instituted a policy of lessening or doing way with hierarchical structures within DM, leader the employee to work toward becoming autonomous within their portion of the company, and seeing the company as a greater whole which also includes the customer. Here's a link to some sort of training program they did in English (not the best translation, but you can get the gist of it) that you might want to scan in order to get some idea of what they're trying to do. It's interesting they say they sometimes get employees who want a boss to tell them what to do...some of these folks decide to leave rather than grow. It's important to realize we are all in a different place and not all are ready for the same social, political and economic environment.</font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><a href="http://www.slideshare.net/beyondbudgetingnet/dialogbased-leadership-dm-drogeriemarkt-presentation">http://www.slideshare.net/beyondbudgetingnet/dialogbased-leadership-dm-drogeriemarkt-presentation</a></font></span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"> </font></span><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Richard, please let me know if you find out more about what DM and Werner are doing.</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Thanks, Tom</font></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div></font></div><div>---</div><div><br></div><div>Hi Tom,</div><div><br></div><div>Far from being off topic, your message, and particularly your subject line, dovetails perfectly with what we've been talking about. Devolution of autonomy downward, wherever that can be done, contributes to the goal of abandoning hierarchy altogether. Werner seems to be doing a rather good job of that at DM. The most evolved example of localized autonomy in the workplace are the Mondragon cooperatives, in the Basque country in northern Spain.</div><div><br></div><div>It is very good to support such things, but it is not good to lose sight of the big canvas. By putting his energy into a basic income payment, Werner is lending his support to hierarchy. Being on the dole is being at the direct mercy of governments, and it motivates the recipient to support the continuance of elite rule – <i>Don't bite the had that feeds you</i>. </div><div><br></div><div>Similarly it is good to support the Transition Towns movement and relocalization movements generally. But if we leave out the political dimension, and focus only on local self-sustainability, we have lost sight of the big canvas. In particular, these movements need to become more inclusive, and they need to focus on the development of non-hierarchical forms and dialog processes. Local sustainability is in one sense a primary goal, but in a bigger sense it is merely a vehicle that is well-suited to help develop autonomous local governance.</div><div><br></div><div>rkm</div><div>________</div><div><br></div><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">From: j fadiman</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Date: 18 January 2010 22:34:49 GMT</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">To: "Richard Moore" <<a href="mailto:rkm-at-quaylargo.com">rkm-at-quaylargo.com</a>></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Subject: Re: </font><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><b><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">Tom Burghardt: Obama Calls for the Integration of State and Federal Military Forces</font></b></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyberjournal/message/389">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cyberjournal/message/389</a></font></span></font></span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#0626FF">right on schedule. Mr. underpants has served the system well. Time for him to have an unforeseen accident soon.</font></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div></font></div><div>---</div><div><div><div><br></div></div></div><div>Hi Jim,</div><div><br></div><div>Once again, the suspicious fellow with the video camera, and getting on the plane without a passport, are the brushstrokes. We step back a bit, and we see a pre-planned operation, including the expansion of the 'War on Terror' (really The War on Humanity) to Yemen, and yet another giant step toward a Nazi-style police state at home. And let's not forget the DNA-toxic full-body scanners, which will probably motivate lots of pedophiles and perverts to apply for jobs with TSA.</div><div><br></div><div>As for an unforeseen accident, I've been wondering about the fate of Mr. Obama. One of the events Adrian Salbuchi suggested we look out for is the assassination of a top government or religious leader. One can easily imagine a summit of world leaders, with Obama giving the opening speech, and suddenly there's a rifle shot, by some Manchurian-candidate, CIA-programmed, Iranian fall-guy. What quicker way to get an agreement on world government? In the case of Obama, however, being 'one of them', the assassination might be faked, like in a hollywood movie, with fake blood and all. The 'corpse' would be spirited away and Obama would rise from the dead three days later, but his appearance would be altered and he'd be off somewhere in a tropical paradise, in a kind of VIP witness protection program. Or perhaps they wouldn't bother with the faking. To them, he's as expendable as any other peon, and betrayal is one of their hallmark characteristics.</div><div><br></div><div>rkm</div><div><br></div></div></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; ">___________________________</span></div></div><div><div><b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">subscribe mailto</span></font></b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><a href="mailto:cyberjournal+subscribe-at-googlegroups.com">cyberjournal+subscribe-at-googlegroups.com</a></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><div><b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">blog for subscribers</span></font></b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><a href="http://cyberjournal-rkm.blogspot.com/">http://cyberjournal-rkm.blogspot.com/</a></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><br></span></font></div></span></span></font></div></span></span></font></div><div><b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">related websites</span></font></b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">: </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><a href="http://www.governourselves.org/">http://www.governourselves.org/</a></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><a href="http://escapingthematrix.org/">http://escapingthematrix.org/</a></span></font></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><a href="http://cyberjournal.org">http://cyberjournal.org</a></span></div></span><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><br></span></font></div><div><b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">archives</span></font></b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><a href="http://groups.google.com/group/cyberjournal/topics">http://groups.google.com/group/cyberjournal/topics</a></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><a href="http://groups.google.com/group/newslog/topics">http://groups.google.com/group/newslog/topics</a></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><br></span></font></div><div><b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">moderator</span></font></b><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">: <a href="mailto:rkm-at-quaylargo.com">rkm-at-quaylargo.com</a> (comments welcome)</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; "><br></span></font></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></div></body></html>
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