============================================================================ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:19:04 -0400 From: ltbrin <•••@••.•••> Organization: brinson&associates To: •••@••.••• CC: •••@••.•••, Frank Van den Bosch <•••@••.•••> Subject: Re: cj#1098, rn> Whole Earth article | "Vision Thing" | Ralph Nader Richard, etc . . . Yes, it is highly unlikely that Nader would be elected President in November. Nevertheless, he is the only moral choice that people of our persuasion currently have. To my mind, it is irrelevant which of the other two candidates is in office -- they both incompetently represent the worse of our culture and society. What a vote for Nader and the Green Party does do is that it provides a viable platform upon which a "grassroots movement of government for the people, by the people, of the people" may begin to be built. If he captures 5% of the electorate vote, it is my understanding that he will warrant a portion of government moneys for election campaigning as well as representation on national debates and other necessities to break the two-party system monopoly, which panders to the stewards of multi-national corporatalism that capitalism has evolved in to . . . Respectfully, thomas brinson ============== Dear Thomas, What you say sounds reasonable, but in Europe you can see where the line of thinking leads. They have Green parties there which participate in debates and which succeed in getting some national and EU officials -- even cabinet ministers - elected. The result is that the Green Party is now part of the system, and it contents itself with victories on marginal issues. Globalization continues; NATO imperialism continues; loss of democratic sovereignty continues. Green voters feel they are making a difference and are seduced into passivity. Is this a scenario you wish to emulate? The third-party scenario plays itself out in different ways, which we can observe around the world and in history, and none of them have led to government of the people. If people vote for Nader, and if he gains access to television debates, that's not a bad thing. That can be one tactic among many on the path to building a lasting movement. In fact, a movement is already beginning to build momentum in the US, and in Europe, and these are joining the tide of Third-World movements which have been underway for some time. Our attitude toward Nader, and to electoral politics in general, I suggest, should be defined within the context of this larger global movement. Until the movement is strong enough to win an election, it is counter-productive to be overly concerned with elections. Elections are an 'event', like a WTO conference, which may provide opportunities for expanding the movement -- but they are little more than that. Even when the movement is strong enough to win elections, elections are not the goal, they are a means -- a means of bringing official government into line with the movement. It is the movement which will be, can be, the embodiment of democracy, and democracy is only as strong as the movement. If 'good people' get elected, and the movement grows weak, then we are being once again _governed instead of being _self-governing. yours, rkm ============================================================================ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:36:36 -0700 (PDT) To: •••@••.••• From: John Lowry <•••@••.•••> Subject: Re: cj#1098, rn> Whole Earth article | "Vision Thing" | Ralph Nader I would just like to point out that Nader has been at this business longer than you or I, and has, over those years, developed more connections to democratic process than any on this list. As to "magic bullets," I believe you made some reference to Vaclav Havel, who demonstrates the opposite. (Yes, I know the history.) ================== Dear John, I agree that Nader could be described as a 'champion of the people', and that none of us, presumably, can lay claim to such a title. So what? That doesn't lead to the conclusion that our best movement strategy is to devote ourselves to a Nader electoral campaign. I'm glad you brought up Havel. There you had a situation where the overwhelming majority of Czechoslovakians wanted to oust the Communist regime, and Havel arose as very competent and devoted leader. The movement came first, and its goal was the removal of Communism, not the election of a particular candidate. _After the movement grew to majority proportions, _then Havel offered himself as the candidate. Thus he was not an example of a 'magic bullet'. A magic bullet is when you try to get a quick win without building the movement first. all the best, rkm ============================================================================ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:19:44 -0500 From: aat <•••@••.•••> To: •••@••.••• Subject: Re: cj#1098, rn> Whole Earth article | "Vision Thing" | Ralph Nader Dear Richard, I don't know whether you'd be interested in discussing this Nader question in more detail. Shall we have a go at it? austin =========== Dear Austin, The question I prefer to discuss in more detail is how we can get rid of capitalism and build a decent world -- and how we can build the movement to do that. If you think discussing Nader contributes to such goals, then please let us know what you have to say. But I don't like the sound of 'have a go at it'. That suggests one of those academic debates people get into so they can show off how clever they are. rkm ============================================================================ ============================================================================ Richard K Moore Wexford, Ireland Citizens for a Democratic Renaissance email: •••@••.••• CDR website: http://cyberjournal.org cyberjournal archive: http://members.xoom.com/centrexnews/ book in progress: http://cyberjournal.org/cdr/gri.html A community will evolve only when the people control their means of communication. -- Frantz Fanon Permission for non-commercial republishing hereby granted - BUT include and observe all restrictions, copyrights, credits, and notices - including this one. ============================================================================ .