dialog: capitalism, elites, and the state

Bcc: FYI
Howard Switzer wrote:
I agree the problem is elite rule but capitalism is how they rule because it is the private control of the creation of money (capital) for profit, issuing all money as interest bearing debt and you cannot pay off debt with debt so you become a slave.
. Once we take capitalism away and have a public money system that issues permanently circulating asset money, what will we be left with?
Free enterprise!
Howard Switzer
You are saying that elite rule can be overcome by taking away their power to create money. If that is true, then they will not permit us to take that power away. Their strings of control are much vaster than merely money creation. Those strings extend to the media, the intelligence services, and the total corruption of the political system. Overcoming elite rule is less about what we want to change, and more about how we intend to overcome.
Bob Wynman wrote:
I’d consider the concept of The State is the enemy, as did Nock, Spooner, Rothbard, etc..
Capitalism is the only system compatible with the nature of humans & of reality, certainly not our enemy.
. The idea of central banks is anti-freedom, anti free-market and anti-capitalism.
I’d say tyranny is the enemy – and the modern state is indeed tyrannical. I also consider ism’s to be tyrannical, whether it be communism, socialism, capitalism, or libertarianism. Slavery to a concept takes human common sense out of the equation. There is no single organizing paradigm that has all the answers to every situation now and forevermore.
Brian Hill wrote:
Taking an anthropological and archeological perspective might provide some insight. There are 3 general types of human cultures; bands, tribes and states. As used in this discussion Communism and capitalism are both state cultures, both are hierarchical, class structured, male dominated societies which have materialistic, exploitative, competitive world views. This type of culture began with the emergence of farming, sedentary life and surpluses. And these types of cultures – civilizations – have ended with the disintegration of imperialist phase of state culture. We are at this place. What usually comes next? Archeologists say that localization takes the place of centralization when civilizations disintegrate. I like to call it the revitalization of bioregional tribal nations.
. But, as Marshall McLuhan, Sartre and Marx have pointed out in different ways this is the first time in human cultural evolution that there is global literacy, or one culture is world wide to different degrees, sort of like a global virus or cancer. This is new, so the question becomes will we use our global literacy, i.e., conscious understanding of our world today, to prevent the collapse of civilization as we know it, or will we have the will to shift from brutally aggressive militarism to a reciprocal restoration of balance – will we experience a new feudal dark ages, the Ecotopia envisioned by the 60s back to nature movement or a heretofore never seen Clockwork Orange/1984? Will this be determined by a shift in consciousness, a spiritual (like the spirit of the 60s) awakening or a return to the stone age band level of culture? Or it could be worse.
If civilization collapses, I would hope for the archeologist’s prediction: localization takes the place of centralization – the revitalization of the bioregional. Indeed my dream is for a viral localization movement that undermines and replaces centralized civilization – not the result of collapse, but the cause.
. However, unless there is a nuclear war, I cannot agree that civilization is in danger of collapse. Rather we are in a transition stage, from one set of organizing principles to another. While capitalism is undergoing a controlled demolition (twin towers a warning?), a resource-based carbon-credit system is being prepared to replace it. And while US unilateralism is being systematically undermined from both outside and within, the infrastructure of a global government is being established to replace it. Rather than collapsing, civilization is moving toward still greater centralization. You don’t need to be a weatherman to see which way the wind blows 🙂