weekend dialog, 29 Jan 05

2005-01-29

Richard Moore

--------------------------------------------------------
From: <•••@••.•••>
To: <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: weekend dialog
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:23:13 +0000

The Bush administration is waging a war however, it is not a
war fought with bullets but with dollars. The way to stop
their war and to use the resources to wage peace is to enact
the Single Tax Proposal found on the URL
http://www.taxmoney-notpeople.com

Paul R. Bottis Sr. 
475 Chandler Street Worcester, MA 01604

--------------

Paul,

Sounds great. But why not simply enact a "Peace and Justice"
proposal?

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:15:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Private_MindSpace <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: "A Brief History of Humanity"
To: •••@••.•••

I haven't had a proper chance to read this chapter thoroughly
- just for the pleasure that it will afford me to do so BUT I
did get a chance to skim and I would like to thank you for the
use of terms like, indigenous and society(ies) rather than
aboriginal and civilized. I am not certain how I feel about
the term primordial but there are not alot of choices in the
dictionary and it has the distinctive features about it that
you are looking for.

Katie

-------

Katie,

Thanks for your guidance on terminology.

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
From: •••@••.•••
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:03:03 EST
Subject: RE: "A Brief History of Humanity"
To: •••@••.•••

Richard, you are terrific!!

I have just read your email, which puts into context
civilization from the get-go.

I always enjoy your comments and words of wisdom, and look to
you as one of the foundations of hope that we can find answers
to the terrible times we are living in right now.

All I can say is THANK YOU, and hope that in my emails to you,
I can contribute, in some small way, to formulating some of
those answers, as well.

With love, Evelyn Goodman

------------

Evelyn,

Your contributions are appreciated. Perhaps folks can have
some fun with the magic site you came across:   
    http://www.dslextreme.com/users/exstatica/psychic.swf

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:30:17 -0800
From: Darreld Rayner <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: "A Brief History of Humanity"
To: •••@••.••• 

            "Another interesting example has to do with the relationship
            between deer and their predators. Predators always go for the
            weakest or slowest individual, and this selective culling
            serves to maintain the health of the herd. When deer are free
            of predators, as when they live in some kind of protected
            area, the herd soon begins to deteriorate through disease."

"Deer and their predators" In our area, Vancouver Island, the
predator is the Timberwolf. The  Timberwolf population is
growing in leaps and bounds. With the help of multinational
logging companies. They log, clearcut, in turn the wolves sit
on the forests edge, what's left, and wait for dinner... Only
doing what they do best.. Taking advantage of a situation in
order to survive. A pack  of animals working together. The
pack has adapted, the deer hasn't. The wolves reward for
survival is slaughter. There is now a bounty on them,for they
are considered the culprits, the cause, of depleting deer
populations. Yet the real culprits, multinationals, are the
ones at fault for creating a situation.

We also have a bear problem in our area.. Never used to be.
Again the main culprits for this problem are multinationals.
They have clearcut for miles behind our town. No forest left,
taking away their natural habitat. Again they do what they
have to do in order to survive. Come to town, Become problem
bears. In turn they are destroyed.

The cougars are also abundant on the Island.. I guess you
could say they are the Timberwolves competition. In the end
the wolves will come out on top, for cougars travel alone.
They both have bounties on their heads...

These are just three species affected. Multinationals are
logging, paving, and killing everything in their path.
Destroying, forever, a natural process that has been going on
for thousands of years.

I grew up in the bush, Richard. I spent most of my time as a
child, hiking, camping, fishing and so on.. I remember running
into bear, deer, cougar, squirrels and so on. I 've been 5 ft.
away from a bear. A few times.. Face to face. I know for a
fact cougar have stalked me, checking me out. The good old
days.

I still spend a lot of time in the bush.. I never see wild
animals anymore.. All I see is road boundary ribbons, for
future logging. This scares the hell out of me. More so than
coming face to face with a bear.

--------------

Darreld,

Thanks for sharing your experiences. All systems are awry
under capitalism

rkm

-------------------------------------------------------- 
From: •••@••.••• 
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:06:36 EST 
Subject: RE: "A Brief History of Humanity" 
To: •••@••.•••

Dear Richard,

America is an idea, not a country.  We have not learned enough
to truly be "America."  Like a co dependent person, one
must first heal issues of victimization and abuse sufficiently
to desire an interdependent society.  It is why someone who
grows up in an abusive family (like myself) must heal the
wounded ness to become whole and desire interdependency.

A new revolution is being fought in the United States (not
covered in the media).  It is a revolution of ideas, of
human values; not moral values.  I am dedicated to furthering
this revolution.

Because I am a woman, I want to mention Queen Grace O'Malley,
someone most people do not know about.  A friend of mine
listed her on the Google site (see Grannia).  Because European
history is taken from England's point of view, there is no
mention of this brave warrior woman.

And another thing:  Warrior Women, by Jeannine Davis-Kimball,
Ph.D.  Dr. Davis-Kimball creates an exciting new global
picture of a cadre of women, rich in gold and gifted in
knowledge.  These unsung heriones now take their rightful
place in history--- as nurturers, soothsayers, warriors, and
leaders who repelled invaders and helped conquer new worlds. 
From Eurasian steppes to tombs deep in Mongolia to
rune-covered burial mounds in Northern Ireland, there have
been powerful women.

Richard, you are an enlightened man and I hope you are
open-minded enough to check this out.

Diana

--------------------------------------------------------
From: "jack 2019" <•••@••.•••>
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: RE: "A Brief History of Humanity"
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:37:46 -0900 


            'A colorful example of cooperation can be found in the case of
            a certain plant, which is pollinated only by a single species
            of insect, and that insect in turn can only survive if it has
            access to that plant. They are each other's life support
            system -- the two species have a mutually-beneficial symbiotic
            relationship.'

Names Places and Dates - teach specifics.

-------------

OK, fair enough. Got any of those specifics? - rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:25:00 +1300
To: •••@••.•••
From: Robert Gregory <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: "A Brief History of Humanity"


had a read - much improved and solid - made me think of the
article that my wife and I did recently, "Myth and Social
Control: Extending a Tannese Case",  archived at:

http://www.krepublishers.com/Journals/T-Anth/Anth-06-0-000-000-2004-Web/Anth-06-0-000-000-2004-Contents/Anth-06-0-000-000-2004-Contents.htm

which is about myth and its relationship to power and control
over others - so we are indeed thinking similar thoughts -
thanks !

Back from a brief vacation and much refreshed here in
summertime in NZ!  Cheers - bob

Pacific Means Peace

Robert J. Gregory School of Psychology - Te Kura Hinengaro
Tangata Massey University, Palmerston North, NEW ZEALAND

--------------------------------------------------------
From: "Kevin Carson" <•••@••.•••>
To: •••@••.•••
Bcc:
Subject: RE: "A Brief History of Humanity"
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:30:26 +0000 

            Thus hierarchical civilization seems to have arisen as a
            hybrid between these two cultural strains: the partnership
            strain contributed the civilizing technologies and the slaves
            to till the soil; the dominator strain contributed the ruling
            hierarchy and the dominator culture. The earliest hierarchical
            civilizations were characterized not only by hierarchy, but
            also by a class distinction between the conquerors and the
            conquered -- a kind of nobility and peasantry, a warrior class
            and a toiler class.

This closely parallels Franz Oppenheimer's description of the origins of the 
state. 

Franz Oppenheimer.  The State (New York:  Free Life Editions, 1975) 
http://www.opp.uni-wuppertal.de/oppenheimer/st/state0.htm

------------------

He must be a smart guy. (:>)

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
From: •••@••.•••
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:16:46 EST
Subject: RE: WALTER A. DAVIS: The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
To: •••@••.•••

Dear Richard,

From what I understand, it sounds like the Knights Templar,
with their multinational corporations, have been reincarnated
and are now in control of the United States.

(It also explains my personal estrangement from my
"fundamentalist" relatives, whose eyes glaze over when they
speak of the 'rapture'...)

Diana Skipworth

----------------

Diana,

Remember the folks who sold all their possessions and were
waiting for a UFO to take them away? That was a CIA practice
exercise for the real thing we are seeing now.

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
From: •••@••.•••
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:26:27 EST
Subject: RE: WALTER A. DAVIS: The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
To: •••@••.•••


            "Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the
            risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the
            universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing the
            personal one."

Superlative, keep them coming.

--------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom" <•••@••.•••>
To: <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE:  a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:30:41 -0600

Richard,

Both are on the same side, they just use different metaphors.
Both are "pro-death" in that they are anti liberty.

You may be confusing classical liberalism with neo liberalism.
As I understand it classical liberalism promoted free and
critical inquiry into the nature of reality in all its
manifestations where as (to the best of my understanding) neo
liberalism is a rigid and dogmatic animal, and is every bit as
fundamentalist as... oh, fundamentalism, except along secular
lines; which if practiced diligently would be every bit as all
encompassing as religious fundamentalism and would in fact be
religious (reality limiting or defining) in nature.

--------------

Tom,

Neoliberalism is a fundamentalism that mostly the elite
believe, but we all must endure the propaganda. I was talking
about liberalism. "free and critical inquiry" is one of the
good features of liberalism, or at least of its rhetoric, but
it's only one aspect. Liberalism may not be dogmatic, indeed
it is allergic to dogma, sometimes to its discredit, but it
has its myths. Liberals believe in progress; they think the
government can solve problems; they think we live in
democracies. I find these beliefs more dangerous than those of
fundamentalists.

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:38:55 +0800
To: •••@••.•••
From: Dion Giles <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism

Re your comments, the following article which I saw in The
Guardian while travelling in the UK and thought worth bringing
home and scanning may be of interest.   Your comment about
many "liberals", too, turning their minds from demonstrable
facts is apposite.  One must condemn the revolt against reason
no matter what form the revolt takes, including some types of
"political correctness".

Dion Giles Western Australia 

------------------------------- 
The Guardian January 12 2005

Scientists hunt the ghost in the machine

Ian Sample Science correspondent

Scientists at Oxford University are to join forces with
philosophers, theologians and brain surgeons to tackle some of
the most profound questions of the human condition: what is
the nature of consciousness and how do religious beliefs
manifest themselves in our brains?

The team, which will be called the Oxford Centre for Science
of the Mind, will be lead by the neuroscientist Lady
Greenfield.

"I believe the time is now ripe for the machinery of
scientific method to come to bear on some of these questions;'
she said.

The study of consciousness and the brain processes which give
rise to strongly held beliefs have, for a long time, been on
the periphery of scientific research. But with the advent of
techniques such as functional magnetic resonance imaging,
which can take snapshots of brain activity, scientists believe
they can start to get meaningful answers on how consciousness
arises and what makes belief systems so widespread and
resilient.
--<snip>---

------------------------

Dion,

I find this article amusing. It is a perfect example of
reductionism gone mad. It is like trying to figure out a
jigsaw puzzle by studying a bit of dust that rubbed off of it.
And from a more dark perspective, it is an example of the
diabolical trend toward the medicalization and
mechanicalization of social "adjustment." Soon they'll be
incarcerating black children who show signs of a "crime gene".

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:25:17 -0600
To: •••@••.•••
From: ~ <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism

Thanks for sending this. I was a little disappointed in the
tone of Davis' article.

Article where "insane" etc. is used tend to bother me. Because
to be sane someone must be insane. And it usually works out
this way. Sane is normally the writer and his group. While
insane is someone else and their group.

The main problem with any solution that anyone can come up
with will be man. On paper Socialism, Communism, Capitalism
etc. look promising. Until man is put into the mix. Then in
time as the 'ism matures they fall apart and replaced by
another 'ism. The history books show this to be a common theme
or a never ending saga. Without the ability to dictate control
of man's nature there will only be solutions that work for the
moment.

These two are my favorites of Emerson. Just throwing this in.
http://www.emersoncentral.com/compensation.htm
http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm

Revelations to me is not God decreeing this is the way it ends
because of his will but this is the way it will end because of
man's will. It is true that some will  work to effect the
process either by trying to speed it up or slow it down.

Thanks for sharing your work

--------------------

Eagle,

I have a some serious problems with your ideas. And what I do
on this list is tell the truth as I see it. Please don't think
I'm dismissing you; in fact I am pleased to have an
opportunity to respond to ideas which many others may share. 
I respond in a spirit of respect.

You say that the main problem is "man". I say the solution is
"People".

You talk about what "history books show", and you are thereby
referring to the chronology of hierarchical rule. Your
conclusions are not about humanity; they are about hierarchy.
"Man" becomes a problem only when there are control structures
that some "men" have access to. We all like power if it is
available, and power corrupts.

You ask for the "ability to dictate control of man's nature."
Are you a god? Do you have that kind of wisdom? I am very
happy and grateful for human nature. I only wish we were not
in a society where every aspect of our nature is
systematically suppressed, apart from our trivial and
momentary desires.

Insanity is not an entirely subjective phenomenon. To object
to a word like "insane", as being prima facie too judgmental,
is, shall we say, prejudicial.

read Story of B, 
rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
From: •••@••.•••
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:44:15 EST
Subject: RE: a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
To: •••@••.•••

            When I see a liberal, as I often have, dismiss a solid piece
            of evidence, because it "sounds like a conspiracy theory",
            that seems to me to be just the same as a fundamentalist
            dismissing hard evidence, because "the world was created in
            seven days". And they both remind me of the Pope who refused
            to look through Galileo's telescope at Jupiter's moons,
            because "God made the earth the center of the universe."
            -rkm

            <http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/9049.html>
            Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions
            which differ from the prejudices of their social environment .
            Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions
            -  Einstein
------------

Frank,

I think Einstein sums up about 95% of what needs to be said
about belief in general.

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:58:08 -0500
From: •••@••.•••
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: RE: a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism

            If anyone can find one, I'd like to post a balancing article,
            revealing the "grand neuroses" of the liberal.

Oh, there's plenty, if you want them. The problem would be
with selecting just ONE.

RSVP.

Alan

---------

Alan,

I don't want just any anti-liberal article; I want something
at the same scientific level as the Fundamentalist piece.

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
From: "Armand B Cote" <•••@••.•••>
To: <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Reply:  a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:59:55 -0500


Greetings Richard!

I have been following your commentaries for a long time.  I
think your question about "Liberals" and their world view is a
question which can be expanded to cover just about any group's
world view no matter how small or large the group is.  The
early historical 'wisdom' in fact refers to your query
(broadened by my observation) about the role of delusion in
human society.

I will refer to the famous metaphor in Plato's Republic where
the general condition of humanity is summed up in the picture
of the cave dwellers who live in darkness and mistake the
shadows of themselves cast upon the cave wall by the fire as
the real world.  Going into the sunlight was a tough thing to
do but only in the sunlight would the real world be
understood, so Plato tells us.

Are we surprised when Plato offers a 'fascistic' social order
as part of the remedy?  We should not be since we all have the
capacity to realize delusion in other world views but few of
us will admit to the delusionary content of our own world
view.

The 'reported' teachings of Bhudda tell us that enlightenment
is the casting off of our attachment to our delusions.

There are numerous references in the literature up to the
present time to the condition of delusion, partial or total,
individual or group, as the lot of humanity.  Today, these
delusions are described in modern times in the social sciences
and in the psychiatric and psychological findings.

In a word, the world is infested with the confining
consequences of delusionary belief systems which masquerade in
many religious and secular garbs which are also plugged into
the pursuit of and or defence of power, privilege and wealth.

So, Richard, from one horizon of the globe to the other, with
increasing intensity, the believers in their own world view
denounce with confidence the delusionary world views of
others.  This growing conflictual intensity reminds me of
algae blooms which poison vast areas of sea coast under
certain conditions.  It appears to me that the ferocious
ideological/religious blooms which used to be geographically
confined and separated in time such as those of the European
religious wars and the Fascist/Communist episodes, each
engendering a broader reach than former outbreaks, are about
to be replaced with a truly global maze of conflicts.

Are we surprised that the 'neo-liberal' version of
'globalization' serves as the toxic transmission condition for
the developing chaos?

The transformation of 'sleeping' or unmoblized world views
into ferocious, war-like and exterminatory convictions can be
found everywhere in history. But, the world civilization has
never been completely possessed by delusionary and maniacal
toxic bloom all at once.

There was a first time for going to the moon as there is a
first time for everything.  Are we about to have a first time 
global eruptions of world views each in contention for
survival at the expense of all others?

To me, Richard, this is where the exploration of the line of
inquiry leads when considering your question about 'liberals.'

Best regards

Armand

Ottawa, Canada

--------------

Dear Armand,

Thanks for your essay. I enjoyed reading it.

As regards liberals, I still think it is worthwhile to
understand specific delusional patterns, even though I agree
delusions, of some sort, are a general condition.

The recent emergence of war-like convictions is not an
accidental phenomenon. The global Jihad movement, for example,
was planned and financed by the CIA. It's the replacement for
the Cold War, and it's the core of Huntington's thesis on "The
Clash of Civilizations". Similarly, the born-again movement is
a cult project, following after CIA experiments such as those
involving Rev. Jim Jones and David Koresh.

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:49:58 -0700
Subject: RE: a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
From: RADICAL PRESS <•••@••.•••>
To: <•••@••.•••>, <•••@••.•••> 

Dear Richard, et al,

I thought that Diane Harvey's comments on liberals and
conservatives might help to elucidate a bit further the
sometimes vague notions surrounding these seemingly dualist
descriptions of the human character. The following excerpt
below is therefore given.

In Peace, Light & Undying Courage,

Arthur Topham Pub/Ed The Radical Press

--------------

Arthur,

Thanks, good article. I posted it to newslog: 
  http://www.cyberjournal.org/cj/show_archives/?id=407&lists=newslog

I liked this excerpt:

            We no longer have any idea of what a living culture might look
            like. We can hardly conceive now of a free, robust and healthy
            civilization, even for our own country. We fondly imagine that
            the stock market is the indicator of a nation's health.

rkm

--------------------------------------------------------
From: •••@••.•••
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:10:07 EST
Subject: RE: a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
To: •••@••.•••

Richard,

            See the happy moron, He doesn't give a damn. 
            I wish I was a moron. My God - perhaps I am!

jim

--------------------------------------------------------
From: "Kay Miller" <•••@••.•••>
To: <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: WALTER A. DAVIS: The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:08:46 -0700

Hello:  I want to thank you for emphasizing Walter A. Davis's
article in your January 25 entry.  I had seen it on
Counterpunch in early January, but didn't take the time to
read it.  I did today, and it is critical reading for people
(especially on the "Left") dismayed by the stolen election,
those still perplexed by the "cult" (S. Hersh) in Washington,
D.C., and for all those who don't recognize capitalism as the
other fundamentalism so equally and perversely destructive to
our well-being, the future,  and the survival of the planet. 
You were absolutely on target  to underline the extraordinary
illumination of his writing and thinking.   I have also been
reading Bertel Ollman, and recommend him for similar reasons. 
Thanks again.

K. Miller 

--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:06:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Private_MindSpace <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: a brief comment RE: Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism
To: •••@••.•••

Don't recant!

This book, "The Necessity of Madness & Unproductivity" by Dr.
John Breeding discusses this very attribute of
'fundamentalism' from various perspectives.

For the sake of the horrific harms done by this mindset -
Don't recant! The article was not negative! It was pointed in
its analysis of a mindset - the mind that perpetrates itself
for 'ones' own good' and for 'the good of all'.

Katie


-- 

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Richard Moore (rkm)
Wexford, Ireland

"Escaping The Matrix - 
Global Transformation: 
WHY WE NEED IT, AND HOW WE CAN ACHIEVE IT ", somewhat current draft:
    http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/rkmGlblTrans.html
_____________________________
    "...the Patriot Act followed 9-11 as smoothly as the
      suspension of the Weimar constitution followed the
      Reichstag fire."  
      - Srdja Trifkovic

    There is not a problem with the system.
    The system is the problem.

    Faith in ourselves - not gods, ideologies, leaders, or programs.
_____________________________
"Zen of Global Transformation" home page: 
    http://www.QuayLargo.com/Transformation/

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    http://www.williambowles.info/monthly_index/
    http://www.zmag.org
    http://www.co-intelligence.org
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