[orininally sent 9 Aug -- didn't seem to get distributed -rkm] @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 21:51:51 -0700 Originally To: "Multiple recipients of list •••@••.•••" Sender: LECLERC YVES <•••@••.•••> Subject: Re: cr-807> -- "Third sector" On Sun, 30 Jul 1995 Vigdor Schreibman - FINS <•••@••.•••> wrote: > The Declaration was unique, as a political thesis. What other prior such > instrument do you refer to. Jurieu, Harrington, Rousseau, Paine... > The conclusion (that the current systems discourages participation) is correct, but an oversimplification. Agreed. But if you insist, I'll quote to you the entire chapter I wrote on the subject in "Dead-end Democracy?" -- just don't want to put everyone to sleep about something which has become fairly obvious. > The most fundamental motivations of human beings are two fold: a) to > exercise one's own powers to control the environment in which one exits; > and b) to participate in some profound way in shaping society > significantly. I was not talking of the motivations of individuals, but of those of systems which frame human actions: government and the free market. Clearly, they have a direct relationship with basic human motivations, but are not identical to them. The dynamics of a crowd are distinct from those of the human beings who make it up. You obviously are aware of this, but seem reluctant to draw logical conclusions from it. > The contemporary propaganda system has badly distorted Smith's philosophy. This is precisely my point. But I disagree that we can correct the situation by trying to go back in time. So do your, further down in your message. > When the third sector begins to > understand how to facilitate meaningful participation, their power and > everyone within their domain will rapidly rise and overtake the > unilateral power system that we now live under. I hope, not completely. I think we still need some formal government authority, and to let the market operate in its own sphere. But I agree that the third sector can help balance the situation and keep the other two in their proper place. Somewhat like a new version of "checks and balances". If I may say so, part of the dysfunctionality of government in America is that, rather than trying to make it better (as have a number of other countries), you have done your best to hamper it or even make it disappear. It seems to me quite evident that, under such circumstances, it could hardly improve its performance and responsivity. For instance, I have seen little or no reaction, comment or criticism of Al Gore's "reingineering Government" proposal, published over 1 1/2 year ago. It is far from perfect, but it certainly is worth better than total oblivion. > You are right about one thing, the answer lies in the third sector, but > a different kind of third sector that we have ever seen, one that > encourages and facilitates meaningful public participation. This also > requires a different form of leadership, one that gives up individual > power to marshall the greater power of the community for the general good. True, except that the "different kind of third sector that we have ever seen" exists at least in part in countries that don't have the same hang-ups as Americans do about collective and cooperative action; you might learn something from them, rather than trying to reinvent *that* social wheel. You should try to get in contact with Philippe Herzog and his wife Claude Fischer, who lead a group called "Confrontations", dedicated to participatory ideas and creative confrontation as a "third sector" dynamic force in France. Herzog is a communist member of the European Parliament, but there are open-minded people from all ideologies around the table. Phone: 33-1 49.48.11.94 I do think we are closer in our ideas than this seems to indicate. Yves Leclerc -- <•••@••.•••> Montreal, Quebec @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 00:00:09 -0700 Sender: •••@••.••• (John Lowry) Subject: Re: cj#253> re: CJ agenda... I liked Joe Ferguson's post. It was the kind of exercize in reasoning together I long for when I bemoan the fact that reason is a parlor game. I mean reason has become a parlor game, in light of the reality that we live in a world where might still makes right. That fact is routinely obscured by "democratic" gesticulations in support of a grand facade. But we know the truth -- the man with the gold, rules. I especially likes Joe's comments about limiting individula ownership of wealth, as that is the basic idea behind Plan B, where one of my three proposals is to tax, at a punitive rate, the owning of more wealth than one person can reasonably manage. It seems to me that if we, "the leader of the free world," can offer a model of participatory self-governance that holds some promise of actually working, there is no limit to the wonders that might ensue. I also agree that a truly comprehensive examination of our problems might very well cause us to lose all hope, so I reiterate the old Zionist saying I use to close my essay: "the person who does not believe in miracles is not a realist." John Lowry Plan B -- http://www.mcn.org/mencomnet/community/personals/jlowryplanb.html or, Yahoo/Politics/Manifestos/Plan B @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:36:35 -0700 >From: •••@••.••• (Joe Ferguson) >To: •••@••.••• Subject: Cartoon Du Jour I don't think I've ever told the CJ readership I'm an aspiring cartoonist. Here's a description of an idea for an ambitious cartoon that occurred to me this morning. It seems to provide a frame of reference for my difficulty in choosing a "side" for myself (i.e., "right" or "left"). The cartoon depicts a huge landscape. Far, far away, on the right is a fence, to the right of which are a few fat bullies and flunkies manning a high-tech arsenal of missiles. Far, far to the left is another fence, to the left of which is a rabble of militants with cannon and small arms. Most of the illustration is a vast field in the center, with lots of children playing all kinds of games, mothers and fathers feeding and protecing them, people building houses, doctors, musicians, artists, industrialists and environmentalists in debate, etc., etc. The caption reads "Those in the middle will be under fire from both sides." - Joe @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~--~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~ Posted by Richard K. Moore (•••@••.•••) Wexford, Ireland (USA citizen) Editor: The Cyberjournal (@CPSR.ORG) World Wide Web (shared with cyber-rights): http://jasper.ora.com/andyo/cyber-rights/cyber-rights.html http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~hwh6k/public/cyber-rights.html FTP: ftp://jasper.ora.com/pub/andyo/cyber-rights You are encouraged to forward and cross-post messages and online materials, pursuant to any contained copyright & redistribution restrictions. For commercial re-use, contact the appropriate author. ~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~--~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~
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