cj#929> More dialog with readers…


Richard Moore

From: "A. P. Contogouris" <•••@••.•••>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 99 16:36:28 -0400
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: RE: cj#924> A request.....

Dear Dr.Moore:

   First let me express my appreciation for all the information we
have received on Yugoslavia.

   Before the Munich agreement,which started the dismantling of
Czechoslovakia, Hitler and his associates made a number of state-
ments on the "oppression" of the Germans in Sudetenland (part of
Czechosl.) by the Czechs.Here is one by Goering on 10 September 1938
in the Nurenberg Nazi Party Rally:

    "A petty segment of Europe is harassing the human race...This
     miserable pygmy race [the Czechs] is oppressing a cultural

        Quoted from William L.Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third
         Reich",Crest Books,paperbound,p.519.

    Similar statements were made by Hitler and his associates a bit
before the attack against Poland, regarding the "oppression" of the
Germans in Gdansk (Danzig called by the Germans).

    I would appreciate seeing some of these statements exactly as
they were made.
                                  Andreas P.Contogouris


Dear Andreas,

It seems to be typical of internet discussions that the example of Hitler
and Nazism comes up a lot.  Perhaps it arises from a desire to find
something that a diverse net group can agree on: most of us do agree that
Hitler and Nazism were bad things.  Nonetheless, the topic probably comes
up more often than it is useful, and reflects a net tendency toward
extremist dialog.

However in the case of the NATO bombings, I think the comparison with
Germany's aggression under the Nazis is a directly relevant topic, and well
worth developing further.  I hope one of our cj members might be able to
respond to your request for complete citations.

One can compare the actions of NATO with those of Nazi Germany, and one can
compare responses of the German population and modern Western populations
to propaganda, which is the point you're getting at above.

One interesting point, in comparing NATO with the Nazis, is that there is a
continuity of command that runs from the Nazi regime right up through
today's NATO.  There was only a partial and temporary de-nazification
program in postwar Germany (because there weren't enough non-former Nazis
to run the country), and the current German high command - which plays an
important role in NATO and especially in the current conflict - is a direct
descendent of the Reichswehr high command.  The Nazi intelligence
operatives in Eastern Europe and the USSR were never disbanded, they became
the core of the new CIA, and reported up throught their pre-existing WWII
chains of command.  There is presumably an intelligence operation today in
Serbia, under German command, which has operated continuously since before

Another interesting point is the continuity of war aims between those of
the Nazi regime and those of NATO.  In both cases destruction of Serbia is
an objective, and so is a consolidation of German economic interests in the
region, based partly on the development of a Croatian client state.

But I think comparison of German popular attitudes under Nazism with those
of modern Western populations is the more useful area to investigate.

When I was taught about the evils of Nazism, there were always two
different evils that were emphasized.  The first was the Nazis themselves,
with their hatreds, cruelties, and military aggressiveness.  The second was
the phenomenon of "Good Germans", who were part of a respected European
cultural tradition, and yet who seemed to tolerate the barbarisms of the
Nazi regime with seemingly little resistance or even disagreement.

I was taught that fascism could "never happen here", because Americans (and
presumably modern Westerners in general) would never be like the Good
Germans - they'd never put up with barbarism.

This rosy view was only partially correct.  Western populations continue to
abhor the rhetoric of nazism and fascism - but they are as willing to
accept barbarism-in-their-name as were the Good Germans - provided it's
wrapped in a more up-to-date propaganda package.


From: •••@••.••• (Jan Slakov)
Subject: Rambouillet agreement was a set-up
To: •••@••.•••

Date:   Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:22:47 -0400
From: Eric Fawcett <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Rambouillet "agreement" was a set-up - like Czechoslovakia in 1938!
Sender: •••@••.•••

From: Jon Thompson <•••@••.•••>

There is a very important aspect of the war that has received no coverage
in the mainstream media.  In the Rambouillet negotiations, Yugoslavia was
set up, in the manner of Czechoslovakia in 1938.

Already in February, a month before the bombing, it was demanded that
Yugoslavia surrender its sovereignty and submit to military occupation of
its ENTIRE territory: Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo, not just Kosovo.
Thus they could not reasonably have been expected to sign the Rambouillet
document, nor indeed have any faith in the people supervising the
'negotiations' once they read Appendix B to Chapter 7.

The entire document was released by "Le Monde diplomatique" on April 17.
Among the key clauses are paragraphs 6, 8 & 15 of Appendix B to Chapter 7:
par. 8 gave NATO forces the right to travel anywhere, by any means and
carry out any NATO assignments, throughout Yugoslavia;
par. 15 gave NATO unrestricted access to all telecommunications channels
throughout Yugoslavia;
and par. 6 gave NATO and its forces complete immunity from prosecution,
criminal or otherwise, throughout Yugoslavia.

For the complete document, the web address is


I have written a letter to my MP, Andy Scott asking for an explanation,
and a shorter one to "The Globe and Mail" (copied below).

I don't think you have previously made this information available to SfP
members.  I urge you to do so, and also to raise it with Eggleton at the
teach-in.  Everyone have an opportunity to read the Rambouillet document.
And the USA, Canada and others should all be asked to explain the purpose
of Appendix B to Chapter 7.

Sincerely, Jon Thompson

To: •••@••.•••

April 26, 1999
The Editor, The Globe and Mail, Toronto

Re: "Kosovo: where do we go from here?" (page A13, April 26, 1999)

Aurel Braun makes many important points, but omits mention of the central
issue: the Rambouillet proposal of February 1999 which the USA and its
dependents insisted the state of Yugoslavia sign, as an 'equal' partner
with an armed separatist organization.  This 'diktat' contains an Appendix
B to its Chapter 7 which has been largely ignored by the mainstream
western media.  The provisions of the appendix require Yugoslavia to
surrender its sovereignty, and submit to military occupation over its
ENTIRE territory, not just Kosovo.

It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that Yugoslavia was set up for
this war, in a manner similar to Czechoslovakia in 1938.  If your
newspaper is serious about its motto, attributed to Junius, it will run a
news story on Appendix B of Chapter 7 (paragraphs 6, 8 and 15 especially)
along with an editorial stating whether you agree with Prime Minister Tony
Blair's shrill characterization of the Rambouillet demands as "reasonable."

For the convenience of your staff and readers, the full Rambouillet
document can be accessed (in English) on the web site of the Paris
monthly, "Le Monde diplomatique,"


Yours truly, Jon Thompson
178 Odell Ave., Fredericton, NB, E3B 2L5
tel 506 453 4768 (o)   506 455 9425 (h)

Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 18:04:09 +1200
To: •••@••.•••
From: Howard Scott <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: cj#928> Review of cj posting policy

You have asked for feedback from the silent ones -

well - I for one fully support the European and US action in Yugoslavia


Date: Sat, 01 May 1999
To: •••@••.•••
From: Mark Douglas Whitaker <•••@••.•••>
Subject: comments on posting topics

  >From: "Adkins, Gerald" <•••@••.•••>
  >To: "'•••@••.•••'" <•••@••.•••>
  >Subject: RE: cj#921> Richard Poe: The TRUTH behind the KOSOVO war - Bilder
  >  berg GOLD
  >Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999

  >...With the
 >miracle of e-mail connecting more and more intelligent, thinking people -
 >eventually their collective understanding will make it impossible for the
 >corporate media giants to get away with only printing propaganda that they
  >want us to hear.

It's less that I disagree with you, and more that I feel that this
internet information has to be taken to 'the streets' more effectively. And
that requires there to be a manner of discusion along different lines as well.

The lack of information is compounded by a willing buying public. If
these 'unnews' televison stations or newspapers failed to make money off of
it, they would likely change. Certainly it seems they do make heaps of money.

If anyone has examples of effective 'cross-over' linkages between
physcial newspapers, etc, with an internet media base, or of groups that
have worked out effective 'mediaization' of internet sources for wide
physical distribution, I would be glad to hear it. The 'internet media,'
like Cyberjounal and others people have mentioned, however raukus, is still
a small place in the world in my opinion. Perhaps simply printing out in
newsletter form CJ or whatever would help moderate the corporate (and mass
consumer) media bias. Richard, what are you thoughts on this? Several
physcial holes in the 'veil'of the media fabric is all it would take.

Is anyone doing this for any internet publications? In what numbers
of copies? CJ is non-profit. Perhaps the demographics of the list would
change as well.

Mark Douglas Whitaker


Dear Mark,

I hope others comment on these ideas of yours.  There are good print
magazines out there, and small audiences subscribe to them, and the media
machine moves forward - ignoring them all.  Facts revealed in alternative
media simply don't exist as far as most of the population is concerned.  At
least on the net, because of interactive discussion, there is some sense of
shared community, albeit small.

My own view, as I've said before, is that nothing's going to make a
difference other than a mass movement motivated at a radical level, and
which includes among its core objectives the replacement of the capitalist
system and the establishment of a quite different variety of democracy.

I'm convinced that anything less will either fail or be co-opted.  This
seems to be true for all existing movements, and I'd be glad to discuss
this point in reference to any other hypothetical initiatives anyone might
want to suggest.

More effective use of the net, and new kinds of print publications, will
surely be important in the development of any such movement.


From: •••@••.••• (Robert Hanzel)
Date: Sat, 1 May 1999
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: Re: cj#928> Review of cj posting policy

Dear rkm et all,

     I would like to see postings related to the subject matter in
question, the impending renaissance.  Just what does that "word" mean to

Dear Robert,

As so often happens with reader's letters, one letter leads into the next.
As I said above, I don't think anything's going to make a difference except
a radically-inspired mass movement, with certain essential elements in its
agenda.  I say this not because of any pre-existing ideas about radicalism,
or mass movements, or capitalism, but because this is the conclusion my
observations and analysis lead  me to.

You could view this as a negative scenario: Capitalism is evil, powerful,
and entrenched... _unfortunately a massive uprising is necessary to
overcome its power.

But there's a more positive way to frame the scenario as well.  We have an
opportunty, _fortunately, as a global society, to _finally undertake the
project which was fumbled in the Enlightenment - the establishment of
popular governance and personal liberty.  Globalization, by carrying
capitalism to its diabolical conclusions, and threatening the well-being of
everyone on Earth, does us the favor of revealing the lies and
contradictions behind liberal pseudo-democracy - which has served for two
centuries as the invulnerable fortress of capitalism and imperialism.

The Democratic Renaissance - and I wish I could be so confident as to call
it "impending" - refers to the intoxicating spirit of liberation and
empowerment that would swell up in the world if people generally were to
wake up and begin to take contol over their lives and their socieities.


Date: Sat, 01 May 1999
Subject: Re: cj#928> Review of cj posting policy
To: •••@••.•••
From: •••@••.••• (Ken Mcintyre)

•••@••.••• writes:
  > lurking is an
  >honorable practice... and there's a good flow of material coming in.

I tend to disagree. It may be for a while. But even those who just read
should also contribute. I find that is one main way to keep material
flowing in.

X-From_: •••@••.•••  Sun May  2 22:58:15 1999
From: •••@••.•••
Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:44:35 EDT
Subject: revised list of countries bombed by US
To: •••@••.•••, •••@••.•••, •••@••.•••,
        •••@••.•••, •••@••.•••, •••@••.•••,
        •••@••.•••, •••@••.•••,

United States Bombings -- The Awful Record

There appears to be something about launching bombs or missiles onto towns
and people that appeals to American military and political leaders.  Here's
the record of countries they've bombarded since the end of World War II ...

China 1945-46
Korea and China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983, 1984
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991-99
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1993
Bosnia 1994, 1995
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999

Bill Blum
Author: Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II
(notice the capital "A" and the underline _ )



                        a political discussion forum.
                          crafted in Ireland by rkm
                             (Richard K. Moore)

        To subscribe, send any message to •••@••.•••
        A public service of Citizens for a Democratic Renaissance
                (mailto:•••@••.•••     http://cyberjournal.org)

        Non-commercial reposting is hereby approved,
        but please include the sig up through this paragraph
        and retain any internal credits and copyright notices.
        Copyrighted materials are posted under "fair-use".

        To see the index of the cj archives, send any message to:
        To subscribe to our activists list, send any message to:

        Help create the Movement for a Democratic Rensaissance!

                A community will evolve only when
                the people control their means of communication.
                        -- Frantz Fanon

                Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful
                committed citizens can change the world,
                indeed it's the only thing that ever has.
                        - Margaret Mead