Monday dialog


Richard Moore

Bcc: contributors

From: “Howard Switzer” 
Date: 21 September 2009 17:31:27 IST
To: “Richard Moore” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: re/ Mondragon – 20 Sep

rkm> the mission of my work on cyberjournal as trying to ‘understand our political reality’. That ‘reality’ includes both the nature of our ‘current circumstances’, and the nature of ‘what we have the capacity to accomplish’. 
I’ve run into the this issue in my own circles.  Some folks want to only consider positive information but it is difficult to keep tabs on what is really going on outside your circle if you do only that.  If there is no dark there can be no light, that is just the way it is.  We need to balance this of course, too much light and we can’t see into the dark, too much dark and we are blinded by the light.  Negative information gives us which direction to go with creating more of the positive.

Hi Howard,

Why people look for certain kinds of  information, and avoid other kinds, is not easy to understand. I suspect part of the answer is that people want to feel comfortable, and avoid worry and stress. If you avoid ‘negative’ information, then you don’t need to worry about it. Also there is an urban voodoo myth, very popular these days, that if you think negative thoughts you will make bad things happen, and if you think good thoughts, you will make good things happen. There may be some psychological truth to that, but I don’t think it applies to your learning process, to what facts you ‘let in’.

To the extent we might think we are ‘teaching’ people by giving them ‘useful information’, we need to keep in mind that a ‘student’ must want to learn before he can be taught. And the ‘teaching’ must be in terms the ‘student’ can relate to. So, unfortunately, online forums tend to be choirs that have gathered to sing to one another out of their shared song book. And then there are those where people gather simply because they like to argue.


From: Steve Campbell 
Date: 4 October 2009 02:52:03 IST
To: Richard K Moore <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Fw: Re: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception


As you may have gathered, I sent your recent article to my list of about 370 now.  Many are new and unknown, and as you can see from the remark below (the only feedback so far), this chap doesn’t have a clue.  I cannot imagine how to respond.  The gulf is very wide.  Maybe if he stays on my list for awhile he’ll begin to get a sense of where things are going.
Thanks for your astute understanding of this situation in Europe.
Best regards,
— On Sat, 10/3/09, Cougar Den  wrote:
From: Cougar Den 
Subject: Re: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception
To: Steve
Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 7:14 PM

What is it to you?  The majority of Irish voted what they consider best for their country and they don’t need a pile of dumb Americans to tell them what’s up.

Hi Steve,

For what it’s worth, I am an Irish citizen, and I voted against the Treaty, so it’s not really a case of Americans telling ‘them’ what to do. However, ‘Cougar’ is right, the Irish people don’t need everyone telling them what’s up. The problem is that all the media channels were doing just that. Without the deceitful media blitz, the people’s common sense probably would have prevailed, as it did in the first vote. And incidentally, much of the funding for the YES campaign came from EU political parties outside of Ireland, which is illegal under Irish law. So again, I agree with Cougar’s main principle.

As regards ‘Cougar’ beginning to ‘get a sense of where things are going’ I wouldn’t hold my breath. As in the discussion in the previous message above, people don’t learn things unless they’re ready to. I can’t remember a single person who has shifted their position from right to left, or left to right, on the Internet or otherwise, except for young people around University age. 

‘Cougar’ is an interesting alias. It’s one of the solitary cats, not one of the social cats. I surmise our friend is an entrenched libertarian, and one who likes to do battle, to show his fangs. Approaching him may require special caution. 



From: J
Date: 5 October 2009 08:56:48 IST
To: “‘Richard Moore'” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception

Please take me off your negative email list!!!!!
Thank you kindly,

Hi J,

You’ve been taken off the list. You’re getting this last one via Bcc as a contributor. I notice you’ve been on the list more than a year. You must have noticed both negative and positive postings, and if you think there’s too much negative you must have noticed it long ago. It appears that your response has to do with the Lisbon posting in particular. I’m sorry you didn’t say more about what bothered you.


From: Thomas Schley 
Date: 21 September 2009 17:46:33 IST
Subject: re. mondragon – 20 september

Hi Richard,

Hope you enjoyed your Nederland visit.
In reading the bit from David Moore below I was reminded of something I recently heard.  A west coast doctor has set up a practice modelled on the agricultural CSA concept.  Patients pay a modest amount each month (or whatever time span is agreed upon) whether they visit the doctor or not.  This gives the doctor a steady, but perhaps lower income than some of his peers.  When a patient does see the doctor they don’t pay anything in addition to the monthly fee…except perhaps for medicines, etc.   I’m not sure how this is actually working out, but it seems to fit in with the idea of organizing health care along local community lines…somewhat like the days when house calls and bartering were the common.

dave here.
actually, i was thinking that the medical groups i belonged to were
very mondragonish

Hi Tom,

Sounds like a good system. A way of spreading the cost of treatment equitably without giving a percentage to the insurance vultures.  Also, we can look at this from his patients’ point of view: by subscribing in this way, we could say they are establishing a ‘consumer co-op clinic’. This is something other communities could do, take the initiative themselves, and recruit a doctor who’s sympathetic to the idea. 
Yes, I enjoyed my Amsterdam visit, thanks to the hospitality of Earl and his family, and Earl in particular for giving me a great glimpse of the city. The highlight was the Amsterdam Historical Museum, about the history of the city itself. Of particular interest of to me was the era of Dutch dominance in world affairs. Certain dates became clearer to me, and I noticed how dominance has been aligned with century boundaries:
1492, Columbus voyage.
1500’s dominated by Spain & Portugal. 
late 1500’s, Protestants take over Amsterdam.
1600’s dominated by Dutch Provinces.
late 1600’s, Dutch lose maritime supremacy
1700’s dominated by Britain & France and their conflicts
1805, Battle of Trafalgar, British fleet defeats French fleet
1800’s dominated by Britain
1914-18, WWI, Britain left in debt, Germany defeated
1900’s dominated by USA
9/11/2001, USA begins self-destructing
2000’s dominated by ??

From: “Lincoln Justice” 
Date: 22 September 2009 17:03:40 IST
To: misc friends
Subject: ‘invisible war’ a superior general wins without fighting

To Friends associated with the Discovery Group and the Energy Alternative Network and the Transition Movement:
  The Mondragon Worker Owned cooperative is a beautiful example of people who have learned the art of self government.
  Richard Moore (author of ESCAPING THE MATRIX) offers some gems of wisdom that can apply to the Transition Movement and the future society we are seeking to create.   This enclosed discussion is part of an on going dialogue among folks who have seen the documentary film “The Mondragon Experiment”.    We will be showing this film next Sunday,  1:30 PM at the Library Center in Springfield.
  The key idea for me is that we need to give our energy to creating a new self-governing society  in which we manage our own local affairs, rather than fighting or complaining about the old dysfunctional system.

Hi Lincoln,
Thanks for forwarding the information on to people who might be able to benefit from it. And those kinds of forward are much more meaningful when they are preceded by your own comments, as you have done. I always encourage forwards, and request only that my email address be included so that I can get comments from readers.
From: “Howard Switzer” 
Date: 23 September 2009 00:38:00 IST
To: “Richard Moore” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: newslog 22 Sep 2009
Iowa Quarantine Order
CDC site: martial law preparations well advanced
Swine flu: list of emergency orders

Yes, how many years ago did I hear Michael Rappaport say that the future of social control would be medical, instead of black shirts it will be white coats.
From: “Kathy” 
Date: 27 September 2009 09:43:57 IST
To: “Richard Moore” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: Paul Joseph Watson: U.S. Troops Now Occupying America

Troops are all over the place here in little ole KY for the annual Sorghum Festival.

Hi Kathy,
Thanks for the eye-witness report. What kind of equipment and vehicles did they have? Were they doing anything other than monitoring events?
From: “Madeline Bruce” 
Date: 30 September 2009 14:08:57 IST
Subject: Re: Reclaiming the Commons on Gabriola Island

This sounds wonderful.  thank you Richard. 
Hi Madeline,
Perhaps you folks in Nanaimo can somehow link up with the Gabriola folks.
From: J Fadiman
Date: 30 September 2009 18:09:32 IST
Subject: Re: Reclaiming the Commons on Gabriola Island

Feels great. And how much time and effort to fight back the rush to not have any commons. Good for them.
From: Ed Goertzen 
Date: 4 October 2009 15:36:00 IST
To: Richard Moore <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: Reclaiming the Commons on Gabriola Island

Hi Richard:

What is happening on Gabriola Ilse is interesting. 
My parents originated in a small but prosperous Mennonite village in the Ukraine.  
Transportation being what it was, the farmland needed for the growing village was too far away to travel to each day to farm it. Farmland that is 1/2 day’s journey away by horse in not economically sound. 
The village then designated certain volunteers to set up a new village about 200 miles north.
The volunteers encompassed all the “real” capital needed, plus the skills and “knowledge base” for success, especially the seed grain, animals (breeding stock) and enough other supplies to last until the first harvest. 
What they failed to consider was that the seed grain planted 200 miles north, did not ripen early enough to be harvested before the winter set in. 
It took several years of careful selection and replanting of the grain that ripened early to build up a stock of seed grain to sustain the new colony.
I expect that could be called learning how to do inter-generational planning. 
I hope the people on Gabriola can learn from history. 

Ed G

Hi Ed,
At least the ‘volunteers’ were already farmers. Our problem today, as we turn toward local sustainability, is that most of don’t have the first clue about farming. It’s a highly skilled, knowledge-based undertaking, particularly for small-scale organic farming. 


From: WellDunn/Tacenda 
Date: 1 October 2009 04:37:13 IST
To: Richard Moore <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Fw: Tamiflu (oseltamivir) for Oral Suspension:  Medication dosing errors reported

GREAT INFO you are giving us on the swine flu !!!!! thank you so much, I am forwarding it and printing it and mailing it to those w/out internet, you are wonderful to find out so much…meanwhile, here is one jim got a few days ago, we are behind again, haha. love pen and jim
Hi Pen,
I’ve been getting hundreds of emails about swine flu, and passing on only the ones that seem most credible and most informative. There is a danger here of missing the forest for the trees. The trees are the individual reports. The forest is the whole gestalt: Why all this unprecedented global fuss about a relatively mild flu strain? That is what most alarms me. Hoopla is never necessary unless lies are being told and a ‘bad’ outcome is being sought.
From: Hélène CONNOR 
Date: 1 October 2009 08:50:50 IST
To: “Richard K. Moore” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: FW: The Sustainability Academic Strategy (SAS) 

Dear Richard,
This academic initiative may be of interest to you as it links university and the community. Below is the introductory message sent to our members.
Thank you for your mailings, always appreciated!

—— Message transféré
Objet : The Sustainability Academic Strategy (SAS) 

Dear Friends and Members,

We wish to inform you of the SAS project being realised at the University of British Columbia, Canada, under the leadership of one of our initial HELIO Steering Group members, John Robinson. It is ambitious, relevant and successful. It is also the results of tremendous efforts and dedication on the part of the promoter.
Their vision: Sustainability is both a critically important topic for ongoing research and teaching, and a practical imperative for society. We therefore propose two core principles for the SAS. First, the university should explore the various dimensions of sustainability through research, teaching and learning. … Second, the university should exemplify sustainability in its operations and related activities both on and off campus. …
We suggest you contact John for further information and possible duplication of this type of project in your community: “John.Robinson” <•••@••.•••>
Hi Hélène,
Thanks, I passed this information on to the Gabriola folks.

From: RadicalPress <•••@••.•••>
Date: 3 October 2009 20:33:15 IST
To: Richard Moore <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception

My condolences Richard.

Hi Arthur,
Thanks. Unfortunately, the harm is not limited to Europe. I suspect we are going to see a steady expansion of EU military adventurism, now that we have decision makers who do not need to worry about elections. The big question will be whether the new EU will align itself with the US or take an independent course. I suspect more of the former than the latter.
From: Thomas Schley 
Date: 3 October 2009 20:44:06 IST
Subject: RE: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception

Richard, I lament for you and Ireland.
A province within a country as someone said when Britain joined.  Norway and Switzerland seem to be standing alone, probably due to their wealth as well as cultural independence.  Iceland hasn’t signed on yet as far as I’m aware, but by now is probably in thrall with whomever is propping her up financially.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the “country” begin to break apart at some future date.   Of course is that happens a war can always be started to unite everyone under one banner.

Hi Thomas,
The old nations no longer have the right to secede. The EU constitution prevails. We now have a United States of Europe, but with a constitution far less democratic than the US Constitution. If anyone tried to secede, they’d get the same treatment as the Confederacy got in the Civil War. 
From: j fadiman
Date: 4 October 2009 05:49:54 IST
Subject: Re: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception

moments like this and they are occurring more and more often make the total destruction of us all by climate change more bearable. Maybe the Flood was not a legend. 

Hi Jim,
Personally, I believe in the flood and I don’t believe in the climate-change hysteria. The Earth has been a lot warmer in the past without disaster occurring. I can’t recall a case of ‘media hoopla’ where the correct response has not turned out to be believing the opposite of whatever the hoopla tells us. The truth can be sold without hoopla. 
I sympathize with your philosophical perspective however, that a diseased civilization is of little benefit to the universe.
From: “Sue Skidmore” 
Date: 4 October 2009 06:20:16 IST
To: “‘Richard Moore'” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception

We are doomed unless there will be an uprising.  ~Sue

Hi Sue,
Yes indeed, but we need to understand what kind of uprising can be effective, and how it can be brought about. I wish more people were interested in pursuing those questions. 
From: “Sabine Kurjo McNeill” 
Date: 4 October 2009 11:29:13 IST
To: “‘Richard Moore'” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: RE: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception

They’ll take us to One World Government, Richard!
 Cynically and sighingly yours,
 Sabine… [writing a book in German about national debts; after all, the power behind the throne, the ECB is in Frankfurt!]

Hi Sabine,
Yes, the new EU is definitely an intentional step toward a one-world government. The people of Europe no longer have any say in that. The die is cast. The USA and the EU are now firmly under the control of their Central Bankers, the architects of the New World Order.
From: “M.A. Omas Schaefer”
Date: 4 October 2009 16:31:37 IST
To: “Richard Moore” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: First Order of Business for Post-Lisbon EU: Appoint War Criminal As President

The EU was brought to us by remnants of the Third Reich and always was designed to become the Forth Reich. Nothing has changed. They knew that to properly nail shut the lid on the coffin of human liberty, that the process had to be incremental. Their method was: instead of stuffing people into the coffin, thus creating violent resistance, they would build an attractive coffin into which people would move and take ownership. Ho-hum… just another case of the sheeple literally begging to be suckered… in this case by totalitarian oligarchs. Television made it so easy!
Hi Omas,
When you say “remnants of the Third Reich”, I get the impression you are talking about left-over figures from Nazi Germany. In fact, the argument is stronger than that, as regards the Fourth Reich. It was the Central Bankers in the US and Europe who funded Hitler, the same families now promoting the EU and the New World Order. The new face of fascism smiles and says ‘yes we can’ instead of ‘sieg heil’. Different dogs for different sheep.

From: “Brian Hill”
Date: 4 October 2009 16:45:38 IST
To: “‘Richard Moore'” <•••@••.•••>
Subject: FW: FW: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception

Begin forwarded message:
From: Vincent Corrigan
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: FW: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception
This shows the nature of class struggle.
the moiety which runs the state are called”Gombeen Men” 
They are focused on getting “ahead” in the world.
And, the Oligarchs who run things  buy them off — as long as they”know their place”.

Hi Brian,
Thanks for a very concise summary of how politics works.


From: Earl
Date: 4 October 2009 16:27:15 IST
To: cyberjournal <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: 3 Oct 2009 – Day of Infamy – the Lisbon Deception

I quite agree that this is a major blow to citizens in Europe, Richard,  and what democracy we have.  We now are the United States of Europe, meaning a Big Brother type of government, whose corporate agenda is mostly its own, rather than the national governments who responded at least somewhat to their own people.  My perspective is that we now have a European Bloc similar in organization to the present U.S of A., and as the dollar fails, the North American Bloc will appear. as well as its own new currency.  And an (Eur)Asian Bloc will appear as well in some form, perhaps two to begin with.  The African and Latin American continents are less certain, even though I think Latin America will form its own Bloc and currency (well underway).  Where Australis and New Zealand fit in is less certain. Huge, regional governments and currencies, Corporate Style, perhaps with Latin America as an exception to the corporate mold.  From there, it is one step to world government.
I will not predict a one world government yet, however.  First a workable (world) economy must be introduced to replace the form of predator Capitalism we have, as that is failing.  There are too many uncertainties to predict very accurately at this point.  We can only point to the obvious direction things are heading.
But I hope that the People wake up, for that is our only hope for a free life.

Hi Earl,
As you say, things are volatile and specific predictions can never be certain. What we can indulge in usefully, however, is scenario analysis: If certain things happen, other things can be expected to follow. And, Certain things are more likely than other things
The biggest IF on the world scene today, as I see it, is the confrontation between the US-EU axis, and the Russia-China alliance. IF that leads to nuclear confrontation we have one kind of future, and IF it is resolved some other way we have a different kind of future. 
If the nuke option is pursued – and by the way both sides are preparing for it – then we’ll probably end up with a one-world fascist government under the control of US-EU Central bankers. No form of democracy will survive anywhere, and world population will be reduced to a fraction of what it is now, by various genocidal means. This is the New World Order vision, and China and Russia aren’t buying it.
If the nuke option is avoided, then we’ll probably end up with a multi-polar regional system, with China dominating Asia, Germany dominating Europe, etc. In this case, the progressive movements in Latin America might survive, making trade deals with the northern blocks.
There is however another big IF that could trump the others. IF the people of the West wake up and rebel in an appropriate way, a better world might be possible. As I see it, this is the only scenario we should be putting energy into. The others are all losers, and we have no other way to influence them.

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