Grand Coup dialog: Cultures, values, and media…


Richard Moore

Bcc: contributors

Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:13:08 -0400
Subject: Re: The 911 Grand Coup, elites, and how to overcome them...
From: Bill Ellis <•••@••.•••>
To: <•••@••.•••>, <•••@••.•••>
    rkm > That approach has been tried many times throughout
    history, under the name of 'religion' or of 'ideology'.  And
    each time it has 'succeeded' only through coercion. BE:

This is wrong.  It has succeeded in almost every culture
except the EuroAmerican Culture.  Rather than be hierarchies
many cultures were networks.  People worked for the good of
all because the good for all was the good for each. 
Reciprocity economics, has been far more common through out
history than has exchange or money economics.  The Iroquois
nations lived in a cooperative harmony. The Tahitians did not
have a term for "ownership" everyone produced for the free
use of everyone else.  Columbus noted in his logs the giving
nature of Native Americans, not recognizing the significance
of giving or reciprocity.

Riene Eisler, in "The Chalice and the Blade" correctly
recognizes the role of "partnership" in othe cultures and
the evil of the "Dominator Paradigm" on which EuroAmerican
Culture are built.  The "Gaian Paradigm" in which Gaia (the
physical earth and all life on it) is seen as composed of
co-dependent entities is a modern science based expression
of the emerging social paradigm and the new societies in may

It is nor "religion' or "ideology' it is a new scientific
worldview. IMHO

Bill Ellis


Dear Bill,

I think we agree on the forest, but are quibbling about the 

You characterize the desirable shared values of many cultures this way:
  "People worked for the good of all because the good for all
  was the good for each."
I suggested these shared values:
  "We need to get along with one another and with the planet."
I find these two statements in essential agreement.  Indeed,
I'd be glad to accept your characterization, and perhaps
merge the two together in some appropriate way. I've often
referred to early societies as models for how a livable
world could operate.  There's an article on the website
along those lines, called "Returning to our roots":
Please notice that the societies you refer to were different
from one another, and had different hierarchies of values
and beliefs from one another.  They shared only the 'top of
the hierarchy', which you characterized.  Below that, the
values and beliefs varied from place to place, which is
precisely what I suggested.

The model you might have in mind, based on some of your
statements, is that the whole world become ONE harmonious
culture, a grand Nation of Iroquois, so to speak.  I don't
think that would work, and that is what I was trying to say
in the previous posting. What is more consistent with human
nature - and with the historical precedents you cite - is
that there be many cultures, which share a few essential
values.  That is, those values we have both tried to
characterize above.

I agree that the Gaian Paradigm is neither religion nor
ideology, but I don't see it as a new scientific worldview.
Instead I see it as yet another example of our arrogant
civilization FINALLY remembering wisdom which everyone took
for granted in bygone days.  Also, I don't see the Gaian
Paradigm as being a hierarchy of values or beliefs. It is a
framework which is consistent with many different

You say that this emerging paradigm may engender 'new
societies'.  You use society in the plural, which seems to
imply there would be different societies.  Again we seem to
be in agreement on essentials.  If there are different
societies, then I suggest they will have different internal
values and beliefs from one another on many issues.  Our
disagreement here stems from your original statement:

  "The challenge (not problem) is how to create ~a~ hierarchy of
  ideas and values that we call ~all~ share" [emphasis added]

One more thing... I think you and Eisler are being unfair to
"EuroAmerican" culture.  All cultures all around the world
began losing their Gaian Consciousness when they formed
larger societies with chiefs, hierarchy, and exploitation. 
EuroAmerican culture simply happens to be top dog in the
competitive hierarchy at the moment - it is not the sole
perpetrator of exploitive values. 


Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 02:33:10 +0000
From: "Bernard D. Tremblay (Ben)" <•••@••.•••>
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: Re: The 911 Grand Coup, elites, and how to overcome them...

Greetings -

Bruce Elkin's .sig reminded me of a talk I attended on the
plight of the "palenquez" of Colombia, those who follow the
path of freedom, autonomy, self-determination, and dignity.
(The speaker, Manuel Rozenthal, suggests that the perhaps
AfroColombian workd "palenquez" should be used instead of
"libertad", and I follow his feeling.)

The presentation began with a quote from an elder... I think
I have it basically right ... something like this:

    "Words without action have no effect. Action without words
    have no meaning. Meaningful actions without a sense of
    community are death."

We must do _well_, yaa?


p.s. Lately I've been tripping with the thought that "the
pursuit of happiness" is actually a fine and fertile notion,
so long as happiness is understood as the fulfillment that
comes from a life that contributes to the common good.


Dear Ben,

Thanks for the palenquez ideas.

If people aren't happy in life, then what's the point in
living?  The pursuit of happiness is what life's all about.
And let's not get all commmunistic about it.  Not everything
needs to be for the common good.

have fun,

From: •••@••.•••
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 21:48:58 EDT
Subject: Re: The 911 Grand Coup, elites, and how to overcome them...
To: •••@••.•••

    rkm> If we want a world of free people, then we must start
    by accepting human nature for what it is.

It is not human nature to avoid the pecking order of the
animal kingdom.  Freedom must be forced and guarded
vigilantly, and within that framework, ideas are free to be
expressed until they threaten the freedom which allows their
existence.  It is the nature of the world of human dominance
that we go full circle until the end of time; freedom to
slavery and back again.  From our state of ignorance, we are
now headed for slavery that is visible once again, and
probably this will be the final hurrah. Carl


Dear Carl,

When we learn history in school, we are taught only about
very recent history... the past 10,000 years or so.  Egypt,
Assyria... places like that are the starting point.  In
those recent times the dominator paradigm had already taken hold -
contrary to the previous hundreds of thousands of years of
human history.

If you are focusing on that extremely limited and atypical
segment of history, I can understand how you come up with
your generalizations about human nature and human society.

Your pecking orders can be found in Chimpanzees, and they
can be found in modern industrial societies.  But when you
look at the kind of societies Bill & Ben are talking about, 
you find cooperation, egalitarianism, even wisdom. That's
how humanity operated for 99% of its existence.  Don't
judge humanity solely on the basis of its diseased recent

"Freedom must be forced" sounds like something Goebbels
or Orwell might have said....

...lighten up,

Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:13:14 +1200
To: •••@••.•••
From: H
Subject: Please take me off the email list

I no longer need to be on this list - please take me off - 
my email address is...


Every posting has instructions at the bottom to easily unsubscribe.

You can do it yourself in the time it takes to ask me to do it.


*** MEDIA ***
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 13:58:31 -0400
From: Starr <•••@••.•••>
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: Video Documentary of 9-11

Hi there Fred...

You asked,

"Do you think that making and distributing a documentary
which assembled the full range of evidence and tied it to
documentation which people could delve into for themselves
would make a difference?"

Alex Jones created just that, a video documentary relating
to the 'problem-reaction-solution' tactics used throughout
history to manipulate the general public, including 9/11. 
He encourages people to make copies and distribute, to get
the message out.

Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 22:33:37 -0800
To: Ocegueda <•••@••.•••>
From: "Fred V. Cook" <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Re: The Grand Coup & what to do about it...
Cc: •••@••.•••

Dear Bob,

You're right.  And I am slowly but surely learning about the
possibilities of streaming media. Working in the high tech,
corporate environments that I sometimes do, I get to learn
about and experiment with the latest technotoys.

One of the limiting factors right now is bandwidth.  I
suspect that the solution will be a hybrid - for example
streaming video documentary from servers with high bandwidth
to people who have the facilities to receive THEN sending it
out via cable tv channel  OR showing it in a living room
meeting where people who don't have the high bandwidth can
gather.  The side benefit is that people can comment, share
their feelings, discuss, plan action.

Thanks for sharing your thinking!  Let's keep in touch and
keep tracking toward freedom, self-determination,  justice,
peace, sustainable abundance, etc.


Fred V. Cook

Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 21:00:50 +0200
From: Ocegueda <•••@••.•••>
To: •••@••.•••
CC: •••@••.•••
Subject: Re: The Grand Coup & what to do about it...

Hi Richard and Fred,

    rkm > receive, but how?  Control over the media is the key
    to maintaining our current tyranny, and that control is not
    going to be relaxed.

I've thought for a long time that we'll have effective
'mass' communication ONLY when we'll be able to 'forward'
video programs, just like we are able to do with web pages.
I've wished I had that capability when I watched some of the
programs in the History Channel, or PBS, etc. to be able to
send the show to my group of friends... THEN those
instruments of education will be effective.

Visual communication has MUCH more impact that the written word

Can this documentary you are referring to be translated on
to streaming video?

    rkm> My own belief is that the public can only be reached by
    face-to-face communication.  This could be in the form of
    community meetings, of an appropriate character, or it could
    be in the form of some kind of travelling road show.

Even a traveling show will be more effective in activating
the emotions (the only thing that seems to move folks) with
audio visuals.

The trick is going to be how to activate the RIGHT emotions
(concern, cooperation, tolerance, etc.)... the system has
the negative emotions (fear, anger, resentment,  etc.)
management well in their grasp for now, and that is what
they use for get their objectives to be carried out by good
and honest people.

We need to find, encourage and promote audio/visual artists
(I'm including here documentary artists also) that can
communicate the new vision that is needed. Traveling shows
with the right type of message will mobilize and energize
people on the ground where they occur, but those same
productions on web sites that can be accessed throughout the
world can be the forward trusted seeds that inspire the
fertile ground the establishment has been fertilizing so
well lately.

Do you remember how the FM stations became viable? They were
one of the main channels for the anti-war music to be
disseminated and affect their true meaning of loosening
people's mind from the grip of the system and inspire them
into action. Web sites may be the equivalent of these
stations this time.

Keep on trucking!



Dear Bob, Fred, and 'Starr',

I hope you guys are linked into Indymedia.  I'm all in favor
of alternative media, but I'm not in favor of trying to beat
the establishment at the game of manipulating the masses. As
you pursue your projects, please be aware of the distinction
between education and propaganda, between empowerment and