Bcc: X & others... Friends, I need some inputs about what we should be doing on this list. We could talk about Israel, or the war between India and Pakistan, or Fuhrer Bush, or neo-imperialism in Columbia, Venezuela, and the Philippines, or whatever. One thing I'd like to hear about is "What it's like in the States?". Do people still hang out flags? Would it be safe for me to visit there? Seriously now, my time has been taken up by a business venture and I want to focus the time I spend with political pursuits. What is worth doing? What can I say to you folks that I haven't already said, for better or for worse. I can certainly forward interesting things people send in, but that's a no-brainer. Let's do something more creative. Suggestions welcome. --- I read an article on the net, by someone who generally makes sense. He was talking about the WTC, and 'what Bush knew', and was all apologetic about how impossible it would be for Bush to have prevented the WTC incident. For what it's worth, let me bring you in on the conversation... X wrote> The authorities could also have shut down the airports or massed police, soldiers and FBI agents to check every airline passenger. rkm> And they could have followed standard procedures, which is to scramble fighters when airliners are hijacked - not necessarily to shoot them down, but to reconnoiter and be available for any action required. Why were standard procedures not followed? Especially after warnings had been received, and when four planes were hijacked instead of just one. Furthermore, there were many more advance warnings than those recently admitted to in the mainstream media. X> These are certainly subjects for investigation. I agree; though what scrambling planes could have done is beyond me. We always argue that big centralized institutions are inherently inefficient and unwieldy. Here, it seems to me, you and other critics, are arguing that there's something suspicious in the federal government's lousy response to this; I'm saying it's inherent and it should be of no surprise. What passes for intelligence is the promiscuous collection of raw data that they do not know to interpret and, when they do, they usually get it wrong. rkm> Many thanks for your response. Scrambling planes, whether we know why or not, is standard procedure. As it happens, the interceptors can fly along the wing-tips, signal to the pilot, make threatening gestures, etc. If the path goes near strategic targets, they can shoot down. These kind of procedures, one would expect, would be heightened in the weeks following a finding that terrorist attacks were anticipated. I'm glad that you brought up this business of government incompetence. That goes to the heart of liberal mythology. Consider how laws are made. An agenda is set, somewhere outside the scope of public discussion. In the 1850s it was about subsidizing the railroads. In the 1950s it was about destroying the railroads and promoting the internal combustion engine. Whatever. The agenda is set for economic and geopolitical reasons. Finally, the politicians and pundits come up with reason why the people should like the legislation. That's when we first hear about it. It's all a conspiracy from the get go. Here's why that's relevant to your comment, "they usually get it wrong". If you believe the politicians' lies about ~why~ a law is being passed, then of course you will see incompetence in the fact that the alleged objectives are never accomplished. But if you realize that the alleged objectives were PR lies to begin with, then incompetence is no longer the accurate explanation of the turn of events. Take for example NAFTA, which lover-boy Clinton told us was going to help the economies of both the U.S. and Mexico. It didn't, and any common-sense appraisal of the treaty knew that from the beginning. It was a treaty whose sole objective was the removal of barriers from corporations doing whatever they wanted to do. A way to keep capitalist growth going a bit longer. And then came the PR. Incompetence? No. Conspiracy? Yes. And the bottom-line benefit to the corporate sector was concrete and measurable. As is the human suffering. --- [Another thread...] rkm> Why do you avoid any discussion in your article of the most likely explanation: the incident was planned by U.S. Intelligence in order to justify the many and radical actions that have been subsequently taken? Are you not aware that every war the U.S. has ever been involved in for the past two centuries has been enabled by an outrage incident which has later proven to be either faked or arranged? X> I've read all the conspiracy theories and they do not strike me as credible. An easy question: Why four plans, and not just one. Would not the WTO [stet] made their point. Did they hit the Pentagon to improve credibility? Do you really believe the U.S. the source of ALL evil in the world? That everything bad that happens is hatched in Washington? Do you think Bush wanted to destroy the travel industry and crash the stock market? There are less destructive ways to create fear and opportunity for repression and militarism. rkm> Jesus, I could write a whole book in answer to the many assumptions and twists of logic in that one paragraph. To begin with, you didn't address any of the issues I raised. You immediately jumped to, "If what you say is true, then how do you explain this...". Is this a high-school debate or are we trying to find truth? I'm serious: why were standard procedures not followed? Why did an air-force source say that orders were given out to 'stand down'? Why do you seek a way to dismiss such questions? Why not deal with them, and then move on to your more general observations? Let's look at some of your assumptions. Did "Bush [want] to destroy the travel industry and crash the stock market?". Those are very ephemeral things. To begin with, the airline industry, almost instantly, as if part of a previous plan, was granted $30 billion in subsidy. That kept them in meat and potatoes for a comfy interval, with the best cream going to the top. The stock market? Who gives a fuck? It's the little guys who lose out. The big guys either got out first, or they have the staying power to wait out the panic. The ~big~ economic factor is the slowdown in the global economy. They don't talk about it, but it's big time. Too many new cars and too few new-car buyers. That's it in a nutshell. The same kind of over-production and hyper investment that characterized the 1920's and led to the Great Depression. The Industrial Revolution makes more things than anyone needs: that's the long and the short of it. If only it _had been the ~WTO~ instead of the WTC... much more beneficial! (:>) Seriously now, who can understand the diabolic logic of anyone who plans to blow up the WTC? Certainly Bin Laden is the least possible to explain -- it was clear that the U.S. would end up punishing any perpetrator ten times over. No gain there. No logic there. So we can debate whether the Pentagon was a wise part of a CIA scenario. Perhaps you're right, perhaps the Pentagon was a faus pas. But the core logic of Bush (as figurehead for those who know their times table) is inarguable. In a world of diminishing resources, uprising populations, and a crisis of capitalism, survival of the system demands that the gloves be taken off, that hardball be played. Those who say "It's all about oil" don't have a clue. That's just the current project-in-pipeline (pardon the pun). The big payoff, the all-important payoff, is two-fold. (1) Control the domestic population. (2) Take off the limits re/ geopolitical intervention. Both have been accomplished in spades. And not once have we seen even a shred of evidence to implicate Bin Laden or anyone else. Jesus, their arrogance is so gross that they don't even care if they cover their tracks. CNN=Truth, and why bother with the details? "Conspiracy theories not credible". I'd be interested in which conspiracy theories you have in mind. Our whole system is conspiracy-based from the top to the bottom. No company tells the truth about its products; few politicians tell the truth about anything - that would be counter- productive in their careers. I've seen the microcosm in various companies I've worked at. A plant was to be closed down, I was on the management team in the parent company, and we were told not to inform any of the workers so they wouldn't flee to other jobs. That's just business as usual, and the closer to the top you get the more sophisticated the games. I detest the term 'conspiracy theory'. What we have are incidents, elite PR, and evidence. I take the evidence, and lay out the plausible scenarios. Just like on "Murder She Wrote". What makes the most sense? Who had a motive, opportunity, and modus operandi? The answer is often different that what is being sold on TV. Why does that make it a conspiracy theory? The answer to that question, I believe, has to do with sociology and mass delusion, not with logic. --- X> It's like Pearl Harbor, which we've argued about in the past. Once the Japanese set sail the die was cast. FDR had no reason to lose the fleet. Had we understood the intelligence and been ready to respond and protected Pearl we still would have had reason to enter the war. The crucial issue was their attack; not our response. Same here. Unless you believe that bin Ladin didn't do anything, that he's really a third world revolutionary who seeks a better life for the struggling masses, even women. rkm> You're getting desperate here. No, I don't put Bin Laden forward as a people's hero. What does that have to do with anything? Are you saying everyone is either a total good guy or a total bad guy? Have you been watching too many Hollywood movies? Let's get back to the topic at hand... Do you know how deeply isolationist the US was in 1941? Isolationism had been sold as policy for many years, while U.S. corporations were investing and profiting in Germany and Japan. And there was a native sympathy for isolationism in the American heartland. And there were many in the business elite who liked Hitler and would rather support the Nazis against the Russians than any other option. Turning all that around, and generating the incredible popular energy that went in to the War Effort was a truly amazing feat. A failed attack would not have turned the trick. There had to be blood of innocent Americans. It worked to a T. We didn't lose a fleet. We lost a few antiquated battleships and the like. The strategically important ships, the carriers, were all safely out at sea on maneuvers. A convenient coincidence, as was the fact that observation posts on the critical island of Kauai were told to stand down just before the event. I'll stop, because the evidence for FDR's agency goes on and on and is irrefutable. --- X> The left needs to be credible; since we have no money and little access to the mass media credibility is all we've got. rkm> This may be your most interesting point. The left (aka. liberal intellectuals) has an impoverished view of public opinion. People at the bottom are radical. They might be born-again right-wingers, or the opposite, but they aren't moderate. Not in general. People want to hear the truth. And they have a hard time finding it anywhere. "Being credible" means 'sounding like the mass media', the Turner defined reality. There's no win down that path. They define the agenda, you pick at it and point out its inconsistencies. By definition you are marginalized. You evoke the illusion of debate. You serve the system. Wake up and tell the whole truth, as you know it. best regards to all, rkm http://cyberjournal.org
Share: