Sat. dialog re> photos & coup


Richard Moore

Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 19:24:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: •••@••.•••
Reply-To: •••@••.•••
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: Re: about those torture photos...

Thanks, Richard!

For putting into words, with URLs no less, what a number of us
have been intuiting.



The photos had been bothering me from the beginning, and I
finally felt compelled to take a break from the book. The
timing was amazing, with the Col.'s stuff coming in right


btw> I include your email address since you have a spam filter.

Subject: RE: about those torture photos...
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:25:27 -0700
From: "Hodgson, David"
To: •••@••.•••

Glad that it's not just me who thinks such things. It seems
fairly self evident to me that what you say is as accurate as
such a thing can be, there is a definitely an invisible civil
war going on

From: "Brian Wills"
To: "Richard K Moore" <•••@••.•••>
Subject: Your 'torture' story analysis
Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:53:31 +0200

Thanks for this analysis, which I find credible, with all its
disquieting implications, especially your:

"My suspicion was that there is some kind of struggle emerging
in high-level circles. Circles high enough to get leaks
published and high enough to infiltrate the prison and
initiate the photo activity."

For me it endorses the fact that the BBC World Service news,
maybe about a week ago, surprisingly quoted the words of Pat
Buchanan (arch 'old' con) attacking the Bush administration
for its misjudgements over Iraq.

I haven't looked back at BBC news archives to identify the
item. But it may still be there, should you be interested to
it follow up. It was one of those occasions when one says
"Hey, THAT's a big surprise" and then expect to see something
more in newsprint the following day. But our daily Guardian
didn't seem to pick it up -- or I just missed it. Anyway, as
it strengthens your thesis, it might be worth investigating,
because it almost sounded as if Buchanan was pre-empting the
kind of things Kerry may soon have the courage to say! Weird



Buchanan is far enough off the mainstream that he can speak
his mind honestly. I don't agree with many of his values, but
those values do lead him to look at the administration
critically. Kerry is a politician.If he started telling the
truth he'd be out of a job.


From: Tony
To: •••@••.•••
Subject: Re: * FLASH - military coup underway *
Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:55:17 +0100


Amazing stuff!

Naturally, there are always struggles for power at the top,
but the interesting thing you point out is that this one would
be overt - we could all see it clearly.

What would an event like this mean for any progressive


Dear Tony,

I think we are already seeing it. The coup is already in
progress. The oldcons would not have launched the photo
campaign if they didn't already have their defensive measures
and follow-up steps in place. This is because the neocon's
reaction to the onslaught of publicity could be unpredictable.
They might feel their whole program is disintegrating and lash
out wildly in response.

The neocons overt bases of power have been chain-of-command
and control over media spin. With those they've prevailed over
the old-cons in the Pentagon and Congress. With the photos
they've lost control of spin, and now that the sword has been
unsheathed, they cannot rely on chain-of-command either. Their
only options are to ride it out and take the consequences, or
else revert to the covert coalition that pulled off the 9/11
caper. That would presumably involve Pakistani Intelligence,
some loyal domestic elements, and Mossad.

But as I suggested above, no responsible military planner
would launch the media campaign without first making sure
measures were in place to deal with likely responses from the
White House. If a new "terrorist" incident were to occur, I'm
sure the planning includes the immediate taking over of media
networks, the isolation of the White House team, and the
implementation of a FEMA-type response to the incident itself.
The neocons know this, so they're not likely to try anything.

As regards what this means for a progressive movement, or even
for global transformation, it's hard to say. It depends on
what kind of changes are being sought by the coup leadership.
Maybe they just want Bush out, the neocons blamed for the war
crimes, and a private agreement with Kerry. That would leave
our basic situation unchanged. But perhaps they have bigger
changes in mind. Perhaps they want more independence from
civilian agencies. Perhaps some kind of Constitutional review
might emerge. We can only await developments.


ate: Fri, 21 May 2004 01:32:52 -0700
To: •••@••.•••
From: Larry Tesler
Subject: Re: * FLASH - military coup underway *


There is so much fantasy on the Internet. Totally concocted
stories. This smells like one.

Not that we don't get concocted stories from other media...



Dear Larry,

I'm glad to see you're tracking the list. You're so right
about fantasy on the net. There's all sorts. There are wild
ideas by sincere people, there are concocted ideas uploaded by
anonymous pranksters, and their are intentional deceptions
that include enough true insider information to capture the
imagination of the conspiracy theory community, who then
discredit themselves when they fall for it.

There's also a lot of good information on the net as well.
Indeed, the net is as diverse as the world and the people in
it. Whether something comes from the net or not says nothing
about its credibility or lack thereof.

In each case, you've got to look at the material critically.
Who wrote it? How credible are they? Does what they say make
sense? Do they seem to be speaking from a sound mind? Do their
facts match up with known facts? If they ascribe motive to
anyone, does that match our understanding of that person and
their interests? Unless material passes those kinds of tests
adequately, I don't give it much attention.

The Col. (DGP) and his testimony are a very interesting
example of a piece requiring such an authentication process.
Certainly some of his claims, seen for the first time, seem
bizarre. Even if true, one must still wonder how the writer
could know that.

I don't know if you read my previous posting, about the
torture photos. In that posting I quoted from a few mainstream
news article I had found on the net, which had been published
in major newspapers. Some of those illustrated the extent to
which the torture revelations are escalating, indicating that
public opinion is going to grow increasingly hostile to the
neocons and Bush. This represents a major shift in the
mainstream media's relationship to the administration. Another
of the articles, from a very well-connected and reputable
journalist, basically said that top elements in the Pentagon,
the CIA, and the Senate are determined to see that blame for
the war crimes goes where it is deserved--implying the White
House. Another article announced that the Senate hearings are
not going to be a white wash - they're going to keep digging
until they get the ultimate perps, again implying the White

Taking all of that together, I said in the posting that I
strongly suspected some kind of power struggle was going on in
top-level circles. Elements of the media establishment, the
Senate, the CIA, and the Pentagon seemed to be collaborating
to bring down the administration. The articles ascribed that
intention to them and showed those intentions being played

In addition to that, in previous postings, I had explored some
of the evidence regarding 9/11. There is much solid evidence,
and it points incontrovertibly to an inside job. Once you
begin to think in terms of an inside job, that shifts your
thinking about what is bizarre and what isn't. If you want a
plane to hit a building, and not miss or go astray on route,
and if this is a critical part of your mission, then you don't
trust the job to trainee pilots.That would be foolish. Nor are
you likely to find a skilled military pilot who wants the
honor of going kamakazi. Remote control, rather than
being bizarre, is the obvious choice. I've seen reports from
many sources, including mainstream newspapers, that commercial
airliners in the U.S. have long been fitted with
remote-control takeover equipment--as a counter-hijacking
measure. Even if such devices weren't routinely installed, it
would be easy enough to install them on the planes intended to
be used in the mission.

So from my perspective, DGP's allegations made a great deal of
sense,  and they fit my understanding of the likely facts and
the motivations of the people involved. I had also heard about
him before, and his informal analysis of the attack planes
carried out by a gathering of top pilots. The earlier report I
read was from a usually reliable source and it seemed to give
the report considerable credibility.  In addition, I received
the interview initially not through the net, but in print form
from someone I've been corresponding with for some time. This
person has met the Col.:

    From: Evelyn
    Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:55:56 EDT
    Subject: Re: Col. Donn de Grand Pre
    To: •••@••.•••
    You don't know how good it is to hear you say this.  Sometimes
    I feel as though I am the only one who is aware of the truth,
    and even then, I have to reinforce my thinking.
    When I spoke with the Colonel, in person, I found him to be a
    wonderful, believable, down to earth person, in an atmosphere
    of loving surroundings.  Made me feel so glad I had made the
    effort to detour and see him.

So for the time being, until new evidence emerges, I'm willing
to take the interview at more or less face value as a "current
working hypothesis". With that hypothesis in mind, I'll be
looking for indications one way or the other in the daily
news. Will Bush start backing down? Will he start sacrificing
his entourage? Will the Senate hearings get nasty? Will some
of the neocon policies in Iraq be changed? Will there be
non-neocon approved command replacements? Will we see the
phrase "military tribunal" hinted at in any mainstream
sources? As these kind of things happen or don't happen, it
should become clear what is going down. The media events will
carry more meaning, based on the background perspective we got
from the Col.

Thanks for writing in,


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Richard Moore (rkm)
Wexford, Ireland
    "...the Patriot Act followed 9-11 as smoothly as the
      suspension of the Weimar constitution followed the
      Reichstag fire."  
      - Srdja Trifkovic

    There is not a problem with the system.
    The system is the problem.

    Faith in ourselves - not gods, ideologies, leaders, or programs.
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